How to block DHT without finasteride

Pondle

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person said:
Not really because it would have been more detrimental to the eventual selling of their product.

If Merck or the researchers it employed purposely mis-represented the data that would have been a VERY serious safety and (presumably) legal issue. You have to have good grounds to make a claim like that!

I would guess given the hypochondria we often see on this forum ( :roll: ) that over-reporting of sides by trial subjects would have been more likely than under-reporting. But I could be wrong.
 

joseph49853

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Speaking of Merck's/big pharma's influence in the US, and abroad, and the integrity of collected data gathered from years of medical trials and research.

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NEJM Editors Say Merck Deleted Vioxx Dangers
By Ransdell Pierson

On Thursday editors at The New England Journal of Medicine said Merck & Co. withheld information about the dangers of Vioxx in a key study, an alleged lapse that analysts said could hurt Merck as it defends itself against Vioxx-related lawsuits.

The Journal said it had determined that Merck deleted data regarding about three myocardial infarctions among Vioxx users, and other relevant data, prior to submitting its analysis from the VIGOR trial to the Journal in 2000. The trial compared the safety of Vioxx with naproxen.

The evidence has raised questions about the integrity of the data on adverse cardiovascular events in the article and about some of the article's conclusions," the Journal said in a statement on its Web site.

In response, Merck said it promptly and appropriately disclosed the results of the study, correctly stated possible risks of Vioxx and extensively disclosed the VIGOR data to the medical community.

Vioxx was withdrawn in September 2004 after being shown to double the risk of MI and stroke in patients taking it for over 18 months. More than 6000 lawsuits have been filed against Merck in the United States, alleging Vioxx caused MI and death.

If I was one of the attorneys suing Merck, I would be very excited about this," said Natexis Bleichroeder analyst Jon LeCroy," referring to the Journal's allegations. "It would imply that the company actively omitted data in a public forum, trying to make their product look better."

The Journal said it had made the discovery of the alleged deletions as part of preparations for the recent deposition of the executive editor of the Journal in connection with Vioxx-related litigation.

....The Journal said Merck submitted its manuscript on paper and on a computer diskette, but that the Journal's pre-publication review and editing of the story were completely on the printed version of the manuscript.


Read the rest here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/518767


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Rent-a-Researcher: Did a British university sell out to Procter & Gamble?
By Jennifer Washburn
Posted Thursday, Dec. 22, 2005, at 2:38 PM ET

Earlier this month, Sheffield University in Britain offered $252,000 to one of its senior medical professors, Aubrey Blumsohn. According to a copy of a proposed settlement released by Blumsohn, the university promised to pay him if he would agree to leave his post and not make "any detrimental or derogatory statements" about Sheffield or its employees. For several years, Blumsohn had been complaining of scientific misconduct. His concerns primarily revolved around a $250,000 research contract between Sheffield and the Ohio-based Procter & Gamble Pharmaceuticals. Blumsohn claimed that the company had denied him access to key data and then tried to ghostwrite his analysis of it. He further alleged that P&G had engaged in such practices before.

Why did Sheffield, a top-flight research university, try to silence and get rid of Blumsohn? The answer appears to lie in the complex and increasingly compromised relationships that have grown up between some research universities and the pharmaceutical industry. In 2001, the editors of nearly a dozen prominent medical journals warned that growing industry interference with academic research (from study design to data analysis and publication) was threatening the objectivity and trustworthiness of medical research. The editors issued new guidelines requiring all authors publishing in the journals to verify that they "had full access to all of the data" related to their studies and that they took "complete responsibility" for "the accuracy of the data analysis."

......When Blumsohn sat down with Barton at the company's Surrey headquarters in late July, he says he spotted something peculiar. In one critical graph showing how Actonel affects fracture rates, Blumsohn noticed that 40 percent of the patient data was missing. Inclusion of the data, he thought, would have disproved P&G's "key message" about Actonel's effectiveness in reducing bone fractures. Several months later, Blumsohn recorded a meeting in which Barton expressed concern that if P&G included the missing 40 percent of the data, Merck would exploit the results. "Because that is contradicting our original manuscript," he said. "I just know what Merck are like. I think they are going to use it."


Read the rest here: http://www.slate.com/id/2133061/
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Tip of the iceburg.
 

Pondle

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We've been over the Vioxx issue before. There are two points of view on the NEJM's claims about Merck's withholding of data on the VIGOR trial. As far as I'm aware, authors of the study in question hit back at NEJM arguing that adverse events related to the trial had occurred after the specified cutoff date for data collection and thus were appropriately not included. I don't know enough about the issue either way to make a judgement call. I'm by no means a Merck fanboy but we shoud avoid lazy conspiracy theorising - there are two sides to every story. And besides, we're talking about finasteride here, not Vioxx. If someone can back up assertions that Merck falsified their finasteride data then go ahead, otherwise they are on VERY dubious ground.
 

person

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There is no need for me to extensively verify my points because I have no intention of going into legal battles with the aforementioned company. It is fundamentally common sense that a company (perhaps subconsciously) would interpret their findings in favour of the financial gains. Medecine is a business like anything else. Where there is money to be made someone will cash in. Do you really think the people behind propecia thought: 'hey it is such a shame that this over-populated world is going bald.' Let's drop the cancer research and help these over-sensitive males grow back their hair.' Pondle they did this my dear because they knew they would become rich.
 

Pondle

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person said:
There is no need for me to extensively verify my points because I have no intention of going into legal battles with the aforementioned company. It is fundamentally common sense that a company (perhaps subconsciously) would interpret their findings in favour of the financial gains. Medecine is a business like anything else. Where there is money to be made someone will cash in. Do you really think the people behind propecia thought: 'hey it is such a shame that this over-populated world is going bald.' Let's drop the cancer research and help these over-sensitive males grow back their hair.' Pondle they did this my dear because they knew they would become rich.

Person, don't be so naive. The only reason why firms exist, indeed the only reason why there is any form of economic activity at all in a capitalist system, is because of the profit motive. This is called economics. If you don't like capitalism, well there was a nice alternative tried in the Soviet Union and that turned out to be a roaring success, didn't it?

Look, OF COURSE Merck devised Propecia to make a profit. :roll: It's the only reason any drug company does anything. Profit is the reward for risk taken by enterprise. But firms exist in a regulated system. In the US the FDA regulates drugs to ensure safety and effectiveness. A broadly equivalent body called the MHRA exists here in the UK. Other countries have their own similar arrangements.

The FDA mandates that a pharmaceutical company seeking to bring a new drug to market must to submit accurate information to the FDA proving that a new drug is safe and effective. A pharma company has to submit an "investigational new drug" (IND) application to the FDA. Then it has to conduct sufficient trials to demonstrate the safety and efficacy. The results of those trials might be published in peer-reviewed journals. Clinical trial results have to be submitted, along with information on manufacturing specifications, drug stability, bioavailability, suggested packaging and labelling, as a "new drug application" (NDA) to the FDA.

The NDA is then reviewed by physicians, statisticians, chemists, pharmacologists, and other scientists who assess the validity of the claims. FDA inspectors also examine the facilities in which the sponsor intends to manufacture the drug. It's not a perfect system but then what is?

Besides, if a pharmaceutical company fabricated its data, it would face litigation, legal sanctions and commercial disaster. I'm not saying it's never happened, but any serious player that tried to get away with it would need not just corrupt but extraordinarily inept and stupid management.
 

sublime

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ohdearno - Green Tea Extract with a small amount of soy a week inhibits 5AR but what you are probably looking for is something a bit stronger which would be lignan's. Take a look into the HMR lignan for the reduction of DHT. I honestly do both as GTE has other added benefits for hair loss.
 

Phillip

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sublime said:
ohdearno - Green Tea Extract with a small amount of soy a week inhibits 5AR but what you are probably looking for is something a bit stronger which would be lignan's. Take a look into the HMR lignan for the reduction of DHT. I honestly do both as GTE has other added benefits for hair loss.

You must spend 1k dollars per month on your regimen. lol

I would put faith in real meds instead of herbal remedies.

By the way, I drink green tea also but I would never put complete faith in it.
 

Pondle

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BLOODY HELL I just looked at your regimen, Sublime! I thought I was bad... :shock:
 

person

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Pondle have you heard of something called: 'demand characteristics.' and 'participant bias.' The way they measured 'sexual side effects' was by the participants reporting this. I consider this an inefficient means to test for side effects.
 

retropunk

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Pondle have you heard of something called: 'demand characteristics.' and 'participant bias.' The way they measured 'sexual side effects' was by the participants reporting this. I consider this an inefficient means to test for side effects.

You should know men are paranoid about sexual performance and capability. If anyone on the clinical trial couldn't perform to what he's used to, it'll be the first reported side effect.
 

Pondle

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Pondle have you heard of something called: 'demand characteristics.' and 'participant bias.' The way they measured 'sexual side effects' was by the participants reporting this. I consider this an inefficient means to test for side effects.

How else could you realistically test for sexual side effects in a sensitive manner? Besides, I stand by my point that participants could be equally like to over-report sexual side effects as to under-report them. You've seen some of the posts on this forum - "oh, I couldn't get it up last night, it must be Propecia..." :roll:
 

person

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retropunk said:
person said:
Pondle have you heard of something called: 'demand characteristics.' and 'participant bias.' The way they measured 'sexual side effects' was by the participants reporting this. I consider this an inefficient means to test for side effects.

You should know men are paranoid about sexual performance and capability. If anyone on the clinical trial couldn't perform to what he's used to, it'll be the first reported side effect.

You may be correct but complete opposite may occur whereby participants are too embarrassed to mention their sexual dysfunction.
 

person

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Pondle said:
person said:
Pondle have you heard of something called: 'demand characteristics.' and 'participant bias.' The way they measured 'sexual side effects' was by the participants reporting this. I consider this an inefficient means to test for side effects.

How else could you realistically test for sexual side effects in a sensitive manner? Besides, I stand by my point that participants could be equally like to over-report sexual side effects as to under-report them. You've seen some of the posts on this forum - "oh, I couldn't get it up last night, it must be Propecia..." :roll:

I agree that it is very difficult to test for sexual side effects nevertheless by reporting them there is always discrepancies over interpretation and companies use these as ways to benefit their profit margin.
 

Pondle

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I think we've just agreed that it's impossible to tell whether there was under- or over-reporting in the studies. Why not split the difference and accept the published figure?

One cross-check on the accuracy of the clinical trial data would be to look at any subsequent studies by third parties to see if there is a major discrepancy in the number of adverse events.
 

person

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Have there been any subsequent studies?
 

Pondle

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Most of the studies I've seen so far just seem to be reviews of data from the original clinical trials. They all (obviously) talk about finasteride and dutasteride being "generally well tolerated". Maybe someone like Bryan or doc77 could ferret out some more evidence.
 
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