How do horseshoe follicles react to androgens?

[Bryan]

What's this discussion all about? To determine whether children have sebum?

To determine whether or not hair follicles themselves can generate androgens.

 

[freakout]

Of course hair follicles cannot produce androgens. BUT can the sebaceous glands can??

 

[Bryan]

Of course hair follicles cannot produce androgens.

How do you know that?

 

[freakout]

Looks to me you're asking a grade 1 student I don't mind. Why would it? That simple.

In the same way, why would our own biology cause male baldness.

 

[Bryan]

Looks to me you're asking a grade 1 student I don't mind. Why would it? That simple.

It's obvious that you haven't seen the recent studies where scientists speculated that hair follicles may indeed have the ability to synthesize androgens!

In the same way, why would our own biology cause male baldness.

How many times do I have to say it? To help provide extra cooling for our brains.

 

[freakout]

Speculate? I suppose there is no link pointing to it?
There you go again refering to 'scientists'. It's an insult to real scientists by refering to medical researchers as 'scientists' kidding

If there is any credit to Bryan's 'brain cooling' theory, it's this:

Baldness is a result or the response to an overheating brain caused by increased mental stress in large civilizations.

But that's applicable only to frontal hair loss where the frontal scalp represents internal body temperature.

... which make baldness a lifestyle condition.

THANK YOU!

 

[freakout]

Every theory?? You're kidding, right?

You'll be surprised if I say male pattern baldness is caused by something under your nose and it's not your balls.

If you thought I support the 'brain cooling' theory, I don't. But it actually works against Bryan's other theories. So, I'm with you.

 

[armandein]

So you're saying you got more sebum on the scalp than on the forehead?

Exactly, , what say the actual androgenetic theory in this aspect?
Childrens have not sebum production on the body, even in the eyelashes, but in the scalp is diferent because exist terminal hairs, or better pilosebaceous units. Sebum needs the androgens in sebaceous gland, and there is studies that pilosebaceous unit can make androgens from cholesterol. Exist all the biological machinery from the early months of existence. I remember a case of a body growht of hair due the contact whit the skin of his father using an androgenic cream. The hormones seem the initiation the activity of hairs, all of them created but in a miniaturitation from the embryo. The contact whit androgens trigered the growth hair.
I'll mising something?

 

[Bryan]

So you're saying you got more sebum on the scalp than on the forehead?

Exactly, , what say the actual androgenetic theory in this aspect?

Were you careful to do the obvious thing, which is thoroughly wash and de-fat both the scalp and forehead for a period of time prior to doing the Sebutape test?

 

[armandein]

So you're saying you got more sebum on the scalp than on the forehead?

Exactly, , what say the actual androgenetic theory in this aspect?

Were you careful to do the obvious thing, which is thoroughly wash and de-fat both the scalp and forehead for a period of time prior to doing the Sebutape test?

No, but
I tesed the sebutape in my own scalp hairs and the result was negative, and I washed my hair 2 hours before the test.
do you know how many time needs our system to refat to normal status?
It is simple test again, more if you find a derma or trichologic.

 

[Bryan]

Were you careful to do the obvious thing, which is thoroughly wash and de-fat both the scalp and forehead for a period of time prior to doing the Sebutape test?

No, but I tesed the sebutape in my own scalp hairs and the result was negative, and I washed my hair 2 hours before the test.

You confuse me a great deal when you keep saying that a Sebutape test was "positive" or "negative"! You only have meaningful results from a Sebutape test when you have TWO or more of them, and you can compare the number of sebum spots on them, one against the others. And by the way, are you using actual Sebutape patches, or the Subtape Skin Indicators?

do you know how many time needs our system to refat to normal status?

Kligman and Shelley talked about that a lot in their 1958 study "An Investigation of the Biology of the Human Sebaceous Gland". Estimates of that from different researchers varied very widely, from several minutes to several hours. You'll probably have to experiment with that yourself, to find an appropriate amount of time to wait after washing.

 

[armandein]

Hi Bryan
I used Sebutape Skin Indicators, with Low, Medium and High levels.

Negative for me, means no black spot in the indicator. Positive was black stained signals in the sebutape, without quantify.

 

[Bryan]

Hi Bryan
I used Sebutape Skin Indicators, with Low, Medium and High levels.

What do you mean by "...with Low, Medium and High levels."?

Negative for me, means no black spot in the indicator. Positive was black stained signals in the sebutape, without quantify.

You're saying that after you shampooed your scalp hair and waited for two hairs and then applied the Sebutape Skin Indicators, you could find no black spots from sebum??? If that happened to YOU (a fully-grown adult), that doesn't say much in support of your theory that hair follicles generate their own androgens!! :shock:

I can thoroughly wash and de-fat the skin of my forehead, and then wait just a few minutes (maybe 20-30 minutes or so), and be able to see a few sebum black spots after applying Sebutape Skin Indicators. They gradually increase, as I wait longer and longer.

 

[armandein]

you're confusing me with all these questions,
It is possible that my hair was just washed. Not all the children were positive, the two first were negative, I even thought that the strips were defective. In that moment i made the test in my own scalp hair with the same result, negative, ....,but the two next children had a positive result.
the test is easy to make, anyone can make it.

I remember years ago, in alt.baldspot, when i learnt that the more important androgens in scalp hair are fabricated in pilosebaceous hair unit. and You was my teacher. :innocent:

 

[armandein]

You are right my friend Bryan, my test with sebutape in children have not a good preparation, despite of your good advice (thank you). It could be interesting repeat the test, but really I detected sebum production in two children of 4 and 5 yeasrs old. And only with sebutape strips, not a HPLC colum

I was hoping to see scans you made of the Sebutape test-strips in two different locations on your children: 1) their hairy scalps, and 2) their hair-free foreheads. That way, we could compare how much sebum was made at those two different locations. I've never said that children don't make any sebum at all, just that they don't make very much. If you do the test in the way I recommend, it could probably help settle that idea you've suggested in the past about how hair follicles can supposedly generate their own androgens.

Sebaceous gland need androgens to make sebum and sebum is neccesary to have a good hair, despite the ideas of Mr. Kligman.

You've never provided any scientific evidence that sebum is necessary to have good hair. I don't consider those studies you've cited in the past to be "scientific evidence" of that.

Hi, excuse Mr. Bryan, but recently I was reading an interesting and honest paper from Dr. Kligman where talks about the pre-pubertal sebum
http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v14/n ... 95043a.pdf


Quotes:
"The comparative fungistatic activity of pooled hair fat from pre-pubertal and
post-pubertal hair""

"In no instance was post-pubertal sebum more fungistatic
than pre-pubertal hair fat"

"He drew no conclusion from this except to remark that ether-extracted pre-pubertal hair was a good medium for the growth of various fungi"

"it seemed evident that the sebum present on freshly epilated hairs, whether adult or pre-pubertal in origin, did not prevent the physical growth of the
fungus upon them."

"Pre-pubertal sebum is fungistatic for M. audouini, according to Rothman's figures, even when diluted 20 to 40 times."

"Since even pre-pubertal sebum is fungistatic it is remarkable that infection
occurs at all unless there are great individual differences in the fungistatic
power of sebum."

"we have been unable to show that its fungistatic potency is decisively greater than that of pre-pubertal sebum."

"SUMMARY
When the minimal fungistatic concentration of pre- and post-pubertal sebum
was determined against three strains of M. audouini and two strains of M. canis, it was not demonstrated that post-pubertal sebum possessed decisively superior fungistatic activity.
The inhibition curves of sebum extracted from the hair of individuals in various
age groups was determined. Adult sebum was not more fungistatic than children's hair fat by this method."

Any ideas?
I ever thought that luxuriant hair in the chilhood contains some sebum....

If Kligman studied hair fat in childrens, must be real. Are you agree?