How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

Afro_Vacancy

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Simplest solution is just to buy some s-equol and take it orally or apply it topically. I should be able to dissolve around 1% in my usual topical solution so that is the route I will go.

My current lead for supply is this:
https://kayichem.en.alibaba.com/search/product?SearchText=equol

I am in the process of ordering from them. They have quoted 100 grams for $270 USD including shipping. It's a large quantity and the price is a bit steep, but this is basically a few year's supply for me.

At 3 mL of 1% per day, that's 30 mg per day - this will last me almost 10 years for my own use if just used topically. Realistically, I'll just throw out what remains after 2 years or so and order again to maintain a fresh batch.

Certainly much cheaper than seti or other equally experimental agents.

If I decide to start ingesting it, I'd probably want to do around 20 mg a day to start since that's what they used in this study with the following justification:

The dose of S-equol and R-equol used in this study was chosen on the basis of the dose we anticipated would be sufficient to evoke clinical effects in future trials. It was also within the estimated physiologic range for adults that produce equol when consuming soy foods (10), given that the typical average intake of total soy isoflavones is ≈25–50 mg (56–59), of which ≈50% usually represents daidzin or daidzein—the precursors to equol. Dose-response relations were not examined in this study; however, with a single 20-mg dose, perhaps not surprisingly, none of the subjects reported any significant adverse events considered related to its administration, except for one female who reported a headache after taking both enantiomers but not the racemate. Chronic administration of a supplement containing S-(−)equol, produced by incubation of soy germ with the equol-producing bacterium Lactococcus garvieae, was reported to show acceptable tolerance in a group of postmenopausal Japanese women over the dose range 10–30 mg/d.

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/90/4/1029/4596986
Even if I'm applying it topically and ingesting it, a 100 gram supply would still last me ages. So I'm trying to see if they'll sell me 50 grams. If not I'll just take the 100 grams.

I will get it tested for confirmation and purity as this is important and I have never bought from this retailer before.

The combo of genistein + s-equol could increase the potency of my usual topical quite a bit by adding multiple new mechanisms of action, so this has been a very worthwhile discussion.

S-equol works by neutralizing DHT and by binding to the estrogen receptor a little bit. Those are good things if you can get it active ... but I thought that you already had those angles covered?

How's your forehead by the way? Are you done? Are you satisfied?
 

IdealForehead

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S-equol works by neutralizing DHT and by binding to the estrogen receptor a little bit. Those are good things if you can get it active ... but I thought that you already had those angles covered?

How's your forehead by the way? Are you done? Are you satisfied?

Yeah, daro is nuclear for blocking the androgen receptor and it seems to work very well. If the androgen receptor is blocked, DHT is irrelevant.

I am nervous about putting all my eggs in one basket for a few reasons though. At around 6 mg daro per day which is what i'm using (afraid to drop the dose) i am riding the borderline of side effects which for me are dry eyes. I'd love to drop the dose a bit just for long term safety (I've read dry eyes can become a nasty chronic condition) but i'm afraid to without being sure the slack is being picked up. Equol could pick up that slack by binding loose scalp DHT.

For binding to the ER-beta, i'm currently only applying a bit of estriol cream to my hairline. Adding some genistein and equol to my usual topical will allow more selective ER-beta stimulation through the entire scalp. I'm hoping this will increase growth diffusely to further maximize density. If it downregulates my androgen receptors this may also allow me to safely cut my daro dose a bit with confidence.

My forehead is great! Healing very nicely. I love it so far. My family loves it too. Even the family members who discouraged me from doing it saying it was "unnecessary" now say with broad smiles they can see why i did it and how it improves my face considerably. I plan to make a full post of the experience but i'm waiting for the dust to settle a bit first. I think its bumped me 1-2 points facially easily. I'm still getting used to the new face and don't really recognize myself yet completely each day. I am still wondering daily if i went too high or too low. It will take time to acclimate to the change and see if it translates into life changes as well.

The procedure has also increased my hair anxiety monumentally, because for the first time in my life i have a hair line truly worth saving! If i was trying to go "nuclear" before i want to go "total global nuclear winter" now. :) Hence the renewed research and interest in further experimentation.

As for equol, unfortunately that supplier lists 100 grams as their minimum order quantity and will not offer 50 grams. I'm inquiring with another now.
 
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IdealForehead

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You need to use a liposomal vehicle.

I dont believe that is truly the case. I think its nice that Brotzu is developing a liposomal vehicle as I've hear they can increase penetration, increase localization to the follicle, and reduce systemic absorption. All of those are desirable features.

However i have no patience or interest in trying to develop liposomes myself. It is way above my skill level and from what i understand challenging even for chemists as liposomes will always have a tendency to break down.

Equol is a very small and simple compound. It has a similar structure to many other hormonal compounds which we know can be absorbed very easily through the skin in just cream and gel bases. Equol absorbed very easily from the gut as well on an empty stomach showing it is not hard to get it into the body. I anticipate no difficulties with getting absorption in my usual vehicle.

The only issue i anticipate is that my concentration will be limited to around 1% as it is not strongly soluble. This will mean a total daily dose of around 30 mg directed to the scalp. This may be an ideal dose range by coincidence though, as this is within the normal range of what Japanese people get from their regular diet daily (only all concentrated at the scalp). With this dose then, even if every single mg goes systemic, i am within the safe limits and should notice no side effects and overall only improvements in my general health as equol is linked to several.

I am quite optimistic this is a very good adjunct to add with only possible positives and no significant negatives.
 

IdealForehead

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you know that if you buy pharma grade sequol from legit known website , price for 1mg varies from 10 to30bucks?
with your supplier price would be 0,0027 for 1mg. there must be something wrong don't you think?
now here is the problem: storage temperature: -20°C Freezer. what about the shipping?

That's standard for all chemical prices if you buy from Sigma, Cayman Chem etc.

Those companies are north american and european suppliers that sell extremely high purity chemicals for research purposes.

Eg. 100 mg of minoxidil which will make 2 ml of 5% minoxidil (i.e one day's supply) will cost you $140 USD!

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=38304-91-5&interface=CAS No.&N=0+&mode=partialmax&lang=en&region=US&focus=product

These types of companies are not selling for bulk use.

My company is an unregulated Chinese manufacturer who is making or reselling equol made in China cheap. China is the best source for bulk chemicals but you can never be sure if what you're getting is legit unless you get it tested.

These are just the facts of life when buying random chemicals on the Internet.

Most companies suggest storage in the coldest conditions possible but this is likely unnecessary. Equol is not too prone to breaking down. It even survives cooking to some extent as we get equol directly in small amounts from beef and other meat we eat. I will just leave the powder in my freezer and i'm sure it will be fine.
 

IdealForehead

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Is Daro more efficacious in lowing T levels than Cyprotone or high dose spironolactone? Sorry if this has been answered before its just that I cant find any comparative studies on this. Thanks

Daro doesn't actually lower T levels at all. That's why it's so desirable for men who want to avoid sexual side effects. Because it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, it doesn't bind to any of the hormone regulatory centers of the brain (or sexual regulatory centers of the brain), and thus no changes in hormone levels are seen, even when you're on castration level oral doses.

It's a very unique medication. It's the only potent antiandrogen that can claim this.
 

Georgie

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I dont believe that is truly the case. I think its nice that Brotzu is developing a liposomal vehicle as I've hear they can increase penetration, increase localization to the follicle, and reduce systemic absorption. All of those are desirable features.

However i have no patience or interest in trying to develop liposomes myself. It is way above my skill level and from what i understand challenging even for chemists as liposomes will always have a tendency to break down.

Equol is a very small and simple compound. It has a similar structure to many other hormonal compounds which we know can be absorbed very easily through the skin in just cream and gel bases. Equol absorbed very easily from the gut as well on an empty stomach showing it is not hard to get it into the body. I anticipate no difficulties with getting absorption in my usual vehicle.

The only issue i anticipate is that my concentration will be limited to around 1% as it is not strongly soluble. This will mean a total daily dose of around 30 mg directed to the scalp. This may be an ideal dose range by coincidence though, as this is within the normal range of what Japanese people get from their regular diet daily (only all concentrated at the scalp). With this dose then, even if every single mg goes systemic, i am within the safe limits and should notice no side effects and overall only improvements in my general health as equol is linked to several.

I am quite optimistic this is a very good adjunct to add with only possible positives and no significant negatives.
Liposomal vehicles are always best for bio/hormonal treatments. It's not as hard as having to mechanically separate the liposomes from an ethanol/equol solution like brotzu did. Vitamin C cream would actually be perfect, and it's incredibly easy to source.

https://au.iherb.com/pr/Jason-Natur...VDhO9Ch0AeA3bEAQYASABEgIuZfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I have read plenty of studies which suggest women use a topical vitamin c for hairloss because it has oestrogen properties.

Vitamin C potentiates the estrogenic effects in vascular levels and also reduces the effectiveness of testosterone (Hwang et al. 2000). Alongside the increased estrogenic activity, vitamin C also has a protective role against the BC (Kim et al. 2006), coronary artery disease (Hwang et al. 2000) and osteoporosis (Sahni et al. 2009). Thus, vitamin C may loco regionally reduces the hair loss by increased estrogenic effects along with decreased androgenic effects on the scalp, when locally applied with an oil-based buffer that enables vitamin C to pass across the hair texture.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4864803/
 

Georgie

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Daro doesn't actually lower T levels at all. That's why it's so desirable for men who want to avoid sexual side effects. Because it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, it doesn't bind to any of the hormone regulatory centers of the brain (or sexual regulatory centers of the brain), and thus no changes in hormone levels are seen, even when you're on castration level oral doses.

It's a very unique medication. It's the only potent antiandrogen that can claim this.
My next angle is working of destroying T levels. Flutamide it shall be.
 

IdealForehead

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My next angle is working of destroying T levels. Flutamide it shall be.

I'm sorry Georgie but I believe with 99.9% certainty after all the anti-androgens you've already tried that you won't be able to solve your hair problems with antiandrogens.

I hope by "next" you mean after fixing your estrogens first. Because I think that's the only thing that's got good odds to turn everything around for you at this stage. And I do think it has good odds. I don't think you'll need to do anything else after fixing the estrogens except maybe some needling and PRP-type therapies to help stimulate recovery once things have at least stabilized.
 

IdealForehead

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Damn that sounds awesome. So basically its a non shitty version of Bica (Bica is shitty for me cause I dont want my T levels raised). I would take this in conjunction with cyprotone acetate, so any T that is produced is rendered mostly useless if its as strong as you are implying in your previous post. Isnt daro still in the clinical trail phase though? Are you taking part in the trail lol?

I'm taking part in my own trial... :D

Yeah, darolutamide is the strongest agent in existence for chemical castration against androgens. It is dramatically stronger than bicalutamide or cyproterone and with far fewer side effects because it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier.

There is no need with daro to reduce your testosterone levels, as sufficient amounts of circulating daro will castrate all your androgen receptors top to bottom.

But beware, the degree of castration it offers could be dangerous for numerous bodily systems including osteoporosis risk, etc. For me, even just using 10 mg twice a day on my scalp, all the sebaceous glands in my entire body shut down and I felt like I was being burned alive in normal room temperature from it.

Very, very strong stuff.
 

IdealForehead

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Damn I feel seriously out nucleared now cause its so stronger than cypro lol. I hope an oral form of the drug is released, it sounds like the dream, I still personally like the fact that cypro actually stops T from being produced so Id still probably take both, I know there is no use for the cypro but I like the fact it fucks my sperm, its like revenge on my balls.

The osteoporosis risk isnt a problem if you take Estrogen right?

Well if the only thing you care about is your hair, there is no reason to do oral daro. If you apply topically to your scalp it has the capacity to neuter your scalp better than any other agent with reduced systemic effect. I say "reduced" not "no" because at high enough doses to neuter your scalp you will definitely get some systemic effect.

When I was on 10 mg twice a day topically to my scalp not only did all my sebaceous glands through my entire body shut down, my scalp became so dry from the complete absence of sebaceous activity it was just flaking skin off in crazy amounts and itching from dryness terribly.

Eczema runs in my family so I'm pretty sure I'm more sensitive to the "dryness" side effects than most. But why would I want ANY degree of greater scalp castration than that? It was actually such great overkill for scalp castration that I couldn't tolerate it and I had to cut back. 6 mg per day is now my maximum I can tolerate or I get eye dryness I can't handle.

I took cypro 100 mg per day and spironolactone 200 mg per day. They are much dirtier drugs with mood/energy/diuretic/sexual side effects. Neither was remotely as capable as shutting down my skin's androgenic behavior (evidenced by sebaceous glands which continued to work normally on both spironolactone and cypro with only a mild reduction in body odor on those agents).

Topical daro is dramatically stronger for scalp castration and much cleaner in its side effect profile.

There's really no comparison, and no need I can imagine for oral daro if your hair on your head is all you're trying to save. Topical is plenty. You'd feel any of that topical daro that absorbs through your body in its own way just fine. No need to add more systemic effect by taking it orally. Oral daro would be insane for hair loss and offer no extra benefits I could imagine with only greater risks.
 

IdealForehead

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Have you completely stopped shedding on the dose you are taking daro right now? Are you seeing some regrowth in the temples?

Dryness is horrible though yeah, I got a lot of dry skin especially when I started HRT, my lips were literally drier than the desert, Im sorry you have to go through your whole body feeling like that. Maybe get a swimming pool and fill it with moisturizer instead of water so its make your still nice and moisturized again:D

You were still balding on 100mg cypro? Do you think it was from the increased Progesterone and/or Prolactin? Cypro can be a bit 'dirty' yeah, it gave me some really bad depression but for hair its worth it I guess.

Wouldnt oral administration give better results though, topicals seem a bit random to me.

I wasn't on cypro long enough to judge. I only made it a few weeks and by then I was on daro so I didn't see any reason to continue cypro. I expect cypro and spironolactone both would have stopped my hair loss from the effects they were already having. They were just messy and unpleasant. I was pissing and exhausted 24/7 on spironolactone. I was super depressed on cypro.

My timeline over the past 6 months has been roughly:

1 month of Telogen Effluvium on spironolactone which I then changed to cypro, both with oral minoxidil
1-2 months of Telogen Effluvium continuing on daro with oral minoxidil
2 months of zero shedding whatsoever (like I could comb my hair with a fine tooth comb roughly right out of the shower and maybe see one hair come out)
1-2 months of minimal Telogen Effluvium again when I was expanding my balloon in my scalp for forehead reduction (Telogen Effluvium is a normal expected response to this process and it was very mild - an extra maybe 20 thick healthy hairs a day, no sign of increased androgenic hair loss ie. thin/damaged hairs)

Yes I definitely got hair growth on daro + minoxidil. It was very obvious in the first few months. Corners filled in a lot, density increased, and hairs got thicker. It became harder to judge though once I started inflating the balloon as I stretched out the front 7 cm of my hairline to double its size in order to create enough new scalp perform the forehead reduction. This naturally thinned the hair by up to 50%, but I know my density had already gone up like crazy because even with the balloon at near full levels it looked very good.

Now after forehead reduction, I have only my left corner that has maybe 30% less density than perfect and everywhere else the density is perfect. I'm only at the 6 month point of aggressive therapy and I'm adding estrogenic therapies (genistein, equol). I will be adding PRP again once my scalp heals further.

Aggressive regimens usually show regrowth for up to 12-24 months.

So I hope that last corner will thicken up to 100% density too and I will just have an absolutely perfect head of hair when I am all done. It looks fine the way it is, but I can tell it's a bit lower there and it bothers me after how far I've come and everything I've gone through.

Also, in the past few weeks I cut out both oral and topical minoxidil due to my surgery (bad for collagen). I've had zero resumption of shedding. I'm 9 days post op and zero Telogen Effluvium and zero shedding I can observe.

The regimen seems to be working well for me. To review, my topical is currently 0.2% daro, 1% desloratadine (antihistamine), 5% niacinamide. Up to now it also had 5% minoxidil. Starting in the next few weeks I'll be adding 1% equol and 1% genistein. Will have to get the equol and desloratadine tested though for confirmation of structure/purity. Never got around to testing my desloratadine previously.
 

Georgie

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I'm sorry Georgie but I believe with 99.9% certainty after all the anti-androgens you've already tried that you won't be able to solve your hair problems with antiandrogens.

I hope by "next" you mean after fixing your estrogens first. Because I think that's the only thing that's got good odds to turn everything around for you at this stage. And I do think it has good odds. I don't think you'll need to do anything else after fixing the estrogens except maybe some needling and PRP-type therapies to help stimulate recovery once things have at least stabilized.
Indeed, you may be correct, but as yet i have not tried the hardest oral AA's, and on the female hairless forums, flutamide is the one with the best response by a country mile. As you yourself have stated, it is simply becoming a process of elimination now. I plan to also trial sulfasalazine incase there be some insidious autoimmune component to all of this, which would make sense given that autoimmune disease is rife throughout my family. Lastly, yes peptides and growth factors.
 

IdealForehead

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Spironolactone and Cypro are dirty yeah but they are effective. I got vellus hairs and less shedding on spironolactone alone, I dont know how much cypro is doing except making me even more miserable but it should work too. Shouldnt the fatigue spironolactone was giving you be coming from the low levels of testosterone you had? I too feel constant fatigue and I always have to take breaks when Im walking but Im sure its down to the low T as when I was only taking cypro as an AA together with estradioI still felt this.
The thing I don't like about cypro is that it is a progestin, my libido actually very slightly improves after I take my cypro dose something I never feel with spironolactone, I also feel this on reducing the cypro dose to 25mg so I always like to keep spironolactone as my main AA and cypro as a bonus so it can punish my sperm.

Its great youre getting good results on daro, if it was commercially available Id definitely try it out. Why dont you try adding Estradiol to your regime, it would definitely help you a lot. Maybe try estrogel if you dont want to become like a girl too much? Isnt estradiol much more powerful than equol so you should see better results right?

Forehead reduction is scary as f***, do you have a scar from the surgery hidden by your hair?

Based on my research in this thread, I dont believe estradiol is the ideal estrogen for promoting local scalp hair growth. Estradiol might be ideal if you're looking for a strong systemic estrogen to suppress androgen production. However I am not.

I have been using estriol cream over the counter on my facial skin and hairline with good effect for the past 2 months. Genistein and equol should provide the same tilt towards ER-beta stimulation but with an even greater focus on ER-beta, which in my opinion should make them cleaner for manifesting the positive effects from estrogen signalling without the endocrine disruption. If I am using daro on my scalp, I do not need to suppress my androgens. So I just want the local scalp effect from the estrogens. We will see how equol and genistein do at providing that.

My order for equol has now been placed. My genistein should be here in days.

As for forehead reduction, it has so far gone very well. It is too early to judge the scar but it appears to be healing very well. My surgeon did a very artful job of removing most of my NW2 zones surgically during the process which is part of why my hairline is damn near perfect NW0/1 now. So far the result is excellent though I am still getting used to it.
 

whatevr

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Based on my research in this thread, I dont believe estradiol is the ideal estrogen for promoting local scalp hair growth. Estradiol might be ideal if you're looking for a strong systemic estrogen to suppress androgen production. However I am not.

I have been using estriol cream over the counter on my facial skin and hairline with good effect for the past 2 months. Genistein and equol should provide the same tilt towards ER-beta stimulation but with an even greater focus on ER-beta, which in my opinion should make them cleaner for manifesting the positive effects from estrogen signalling without the endocrine disruption. If I am using daro on my scalp, I do not need to suppress my androgens. So I just want the local scalp effect from the estrogens. We will see how equol and genistein do at providing that.

My order for equol has now been placed. My genistein should be here in days.

As for forehead reduction, it has so far gone very well. It is too early to judge the scar but it appears to be healing very well. My surgeon did a very artful job of removing most of my NW2 zones surgically during the process which is part of why my hairline is damn near perfect NW0/1 now. So far the result is excellent though I am still getting used to it.

I've noticed some effect from estriol on the quality of my hair but my libido has gone down somewhat and I am more tired. I will take a break for a few days to see if it's definitely that.

It sucks that we can't stimulate all these growth factors without messing with the estrogen receptor, but it's the only thing that gives results. I've never had regrowth or thickening of any kind (except Minoxidil) without involving the estrogen receptor somehow.

EDIT: And LotionCrafter won't ship to me for whatever reason. f*** 'em.
 

IdealForehead

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@IdealForehead ; the serum oestradiol which is raised by fina /duta is a good type for the hair ?

According to this:
https://www.hairlosscure2020.com/how-does-finasteride-impact-testosterone-and-estrogen-levels/

Finasteride increases estradiol by around 15%. Estradiol should overall probably have a net positive for hair. I don't see any report of it increasing estriol or estrone, so I don't know if it does anything there. But a man's estriol and estrone levels are so low by nature that even a 15% increase in those would be insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

I doubt most men would ever notice a 15% increase in estradiol even, given that we have such naturally low estradiol levels to begin with. Certainly the amount of increase this represents would be nothing compared to what guys like bridgeburn or HillTopLumber are doing. I am doubtful that this small increase would have any biologically significant effect on hair.
 

IdealForehead

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EDIT: And LotionCrafter won't ship to me for whatever reason. f*** 'em.

I suppose if you know any North American site users you trust, you could ask them to order some for you and then send it to you with you covering the fee by Paypal or eTransfer. (I'd offer to do it for you, but as you might know already I'm extremely paranoid about privacy, etc.)
 
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