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Can you elaborate more on side effects you experienced on a higher dose of estriol?
How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth
- Thread starter IdealForehead
- Start date
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Reversing ratios would probably work better
That's one that I will never touch.
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- 69
You have a different approach to hairloss than mine, that's okay
This thread is, most ordinary people would say, a bit on the “odd”side. It seems it was started by a member who had forehead reduction surgery. Who subsequently researched the hormonal differences in men & women & hit on a focus of increasing estrogen efficacy to increase hair growth. We’ve hear mentions of castration. I didn’t read all 21 pages of the thread.
Having said that... original poster concludes estriol/ dexamethasone stimulate ER-beta receptors encouraging hair growth. He goes on to examine other compounds.
I don’t dispute the science. for I have said,essential oils have an effect. But question is... what really works & what is safe to try.
Women, I think men on this forum would agree, have thicker, more luxurious hair longer, faster growing than men. WHY?
For one thing women ovulate. And when they do & get pregnant often they blossom like a flower with beautiful skin & hair. The original poster alluded to this with estriol being the reason.
Also it maybe, that excess DHT may damage the follicles ability to synthesize vitamins/ minerals absorption as well.
So, I would say, a total regimen should be undertaken to grow/regrow acceptable hair. Putting minoxidil or estrogen on the scalp exclusively won’t work. Finding a safe, effective regimen is goal.
I learned a few things which I may lightly experiment with because the science makes sense.
Finally what is acceptable hair is debatable. Some have gobs of hair & ready to castrate to get to next level.
Others have a scalp like the Sahara desert & would be ecstatic with any sprouting of any new hair at all.
To regrow hair, I’ve concluded it has to be a determination. A commitment. I’ve made some progress lately only by keeping on it each day.
Having said that... original poster concludes estriol/ dexamethasone stimulate ER-beta receptors encouraging hair growth. He goes on to examine other compounds.
I don’t dispute the science. for I have said,essential oils have an effect. But question is... what really works & what is safe to try.
Women, I think men on this forum would agree, have thicker, more luxurious hair longer, faster growing than men. WHY?
For one thing women ovulate. And when they do & get pregnant often they blossom like a flower with beautiful skin & hair. The original poster alluded to this with estriol being the reason.
Also it maybe, that excess DHT may damage the follicles ability to synthesize vitamins/ minerals absorption as well.
So, I would say, a total regimen should be undertaken to grow/regrow acceptable hair. Putting minoxidil or estrogen on the scalp exclusively won’t work. Finding a safe, effective regimen is goal.
I learned a few things which I may lightly experiment with because the science makes sense.
Finally what is acceptable hair is debatable. Some have gobs of hair & ready to castrate to get to next level.
Others have a scalp like the Sahara desert & would be ecstatic with any sprouting of any new hair at all.
To regrow hair, I’ve concluded it has to be a determination. A commitment. I’ve made some progress lately only by keeping on it each day.
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Putting estradiol on the scalp in sufficient dosage is very likely to either restore or actually regrow hair from dormant follicles. All by itself, without any other help although I do use other things like oral minoxidil but those aren't usually needed by MtF's on the female side of things. They likely accelerate the process and might be protective. Women lack beards as do adolescents and this is another thing that makes them generally more attractive. Men's faces grow more and change more and the very muscles around the neck can exacerbate this as well as baldness. If you look at Greek statues in terms of style, both gods, some of them and goddesses were depicted as essentially Androgynous with Aphrodite/Venus often shown with small, less than B-cup breasts if I estimate correctly.
The Estriol product recommended, sold on Amazon I have bought before. I didn’t know how to use it & concluded few years ago it didn’t do anything. I have tubes of oestrogel-estradiol-the real thing & just use it on scalp.. my assessment is it doesn’t do much...But after reading this post I changed my mind. I can use estriol or oestrogel with Dexamesathone which I have also to deregulate ER-alpha receptors.. so I experiment & already see better hair results.
There is also a product Vitalize Follicle Stem Cell Serum..Clinically proven to stimulate hair follicles. I just got that & that is helping.
There is much we can learn from both sexes as far as beauty or hair attractiveness. I have seen photos/ success stories of complete reversals of baldness to full hair by not only male to female members, but members not concentrating on hormones exclusively.
I take notes & study & experiment. I’m becoming more convinced day by day that dormant follicles can be revived with proper stimulus. Extreme measures have worked, but now more moderate measures are too.
There is also a product Vitalize Follicle Stem Cell Serum..Clinically proven to stimulate hair follicles. I just got that & that is helping.
There is much we can learn from both sexes as far as beauty or hair attractiveness. I have seen photos/ success stories of complete reversals of baldness to full hair by not only male to female members, but members not concentrating on hormones exclusively.
I take notes & study & experiment. I’m becoming more convinced day by day that dormant follicles can be revived with proper stimulus. Extreme measures have worked, but now more moderate measures are too.
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Except for the stem cell bs the rest sounds good.
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- 43
How'd you hair respond while on Estriol?
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- 69
I only used it 20 days so it's hard to tell. One thing I noticed is the effect it has on the skin, estriol makes it very smooth. This is my right temple the day i stopped estriol, for what it's worth.
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From the link in Italian:
@Canuto does that means that using Estrone sulfate cannot have side effects?
This thread was started I believe by Ideal Forehead, who has presented his study of different types of estrogens & which is best for hair growth. Not which one is strongest estrogen, but which one is better for hair growth.
Ideal Forehead——
The primary factor that seems to determine the outcome of estrogen on your hair is which type of estrogen receptor you are stimulating with that type of estrogen.
Types of Estrogen Receptors
The body has two types of estrogen receptors. These two estrogen receptors have dramatically different effects on hair growth.
1) ER-alpha
ER-alpha is the type of estrogen receptor you DON'T want to stimulate.
With hair, ER-alpha stimulation promotes catagen. Catagen is the cessation of hair growth. ie. The end of anagen (growth phase). After catagen comes telogen (hair shed). Any estrogen which stimulates ER-alpha predominantly will therefore stall hair growth and lead to hair shedding. (ref)
ER-alpha stimulation also may lead to osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. (ref)
2) ER-beta
ER-beta by contrast is the estrogen receptor you DO want to stimulate.
ER-beta signalling works by silencing the ER-alpha catagen signalling pathway. By blocking this catagen signalling, hair follicles can grow longer and spend more time in anagen. This leads to longer and healthier hair. (ref)
Types of Estrogen
To evaluate the usefulness of any type of estrogen, we therefore need to know to what extent they stimulate ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors.
1) 17 beta-Estradiol (E2)
The primary estrogen of the natural human body is 17 beta-estradiol. Estradiol binds equally well to ER-alpha and ER-beta. (ref)
Estradiol binds most strongly to the estrogen receptors of the natural estrogens. (ref) We can therefore use estradiol as a standard to compare other estrogen binding strengths, and rate estradiol as "100" binding strength for both receptors.
Because estradiol binds equally to ER-alpha and ER-beta, I would postulate that overall this may likely be considered a "good" estrogenic agent for promoting hair growth, but not the best as we will soon see.
2) Estrone (E1)
Estrone is the primary estrogen of menopause. It has been described as the "ugly estrogen". (ref)
Estrone has a binding affinity for ER-α of 60 and for ER-ß of 37 (relative to estradiol). (ref) This means it is primarily an ER-alpha stimulator, and thus can be considered absolutely undesirable for hair growth.
Estrone will lead to premature catagen of hair follicles. It is likely the reason postmenopausal women lose hair all over their heads and bodies.
3) Estriol (E3)
Estriol binds to ER-α with an affinity of 14 and to ER-ß with an affinity of 21. (ref)
This means it is the only natural estrogen with a greater ER-beta affinity than ER-alpha.
Estriol is therefore the primary estrogen we DO want to use for hair growth.
Estriol is most famous for shooting up dramatically after about 12 weeks pregnancy (ref), and it is credited in part for the fantastic glowing skin and long thick hair that pregnant women experience from this point of pregnancy onward.
Estriol has a half life of 6-9 hours with vaginal application, which may be similar to skin application. (ref) Twice a day application thus makes the most sense. It has a low affinity relative to the other estrogens (it is the weakest to bind), so larger amounts must be used if its effects are desired.
4) Ethinyl Estradiol (EE)
This is the primary estrogen used in birth control pills. Unfortunately, EE is a mostly ER-alpha stimulator. (ref) This likely makes it less useful for hair growth promotion (unless you are using it orally for chemical castration, which will help stop male pattern hair loss by shutting down all your androgen production).
Normal women can likely get away with EE usage in birth control pills because even on high dose contraception, they will still have their natural estrogens (E1, E2, E3) to provide ER-beta stimulation and help counteract EE's ER-alpha effect. (ref, ref)
However, EE will not provide benefits for hair in this context, and should likely be minimized or avoided compared to other estrogens if hair growth is the desired outcome.
Manipulating Estrogen Receptor Expression
As @Georgie pointed out in another thread, dexamethasone (a steroid) has been shown to decrease ER-alpha receptor expression by up to 38%, while having no effect on ER-beta receptor expression. (ref)
This means that topical steroids could in theory be used to downregulate ER-alpha receptors in the scalp and promote a more ER-beta predominant effect.
Dexamethasone is used in combination with 17 alpha-estradiol (alfatradiol) in a German product called Ell-Cranell Dexa. I am unsure of the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta stimulating balance of 17 alpha-estradiol, but presuming it is similar to 17 beta-estradiol, the mechanism of action for this product would make sense. The steroid will shift receptor balance towards ER-beta predominance, and estradiol will then bind to these increased ER-beta receptors, stimulating hair growth.
The problem with this approach is that topical steroids can lead to skin atrophy over time, so they are not a good long term treatment. Additionally, the same predominantly ER-beta stimulation can be accomplished much more simply by just using estriol cream instead.
So although it is interesting to conceptualize, I do not think the alfatradiol/dexamethasone combo is the most useful approach to manipulating estrogen pathways for hair growth.
Summary
In other words:
For both men and women, the most useful approach to estrogen therapy in the pursuit of hair growth will therefore likely be a topical estriol cream applied directly to the areas of the hairline where stimulation is desired.
Fortunately, estriol creams are freely available most places over the counter. I have been using this one myself:
https://www.amazon.com/Bioidentical-Supplements-Micronized-Bio-Identical-Menopause/dp/B004XJIDEO
I have read a higher concentration of 0.3% estriol can be used in compounded creams for acne. This can also have an anti-aging effect. If you are brave, you can use it on your face as well for these benefits. (ref)
Primary risks of estrogen therapy in general for men will likely be sexual dysfunction. I have noticed some mild erectile dysfunction when I am using large amounts of estriol cream, but it doesn't bother me at this stage. Other risks for all estrogens are of blood clots, increased risk of breast cancer, etc. (ref)
For my own part, I will continue to use estriol for both hair growth promotion and anti-aging effect on my skin as I have been using it for about two months now and it has appeared to be quite effective for both. Dosage can easily be adjusted by using more or less cream to minimize side effects.
No treatment for hair loss or skin care is perfect or well suited for everyone. Most men will probably want to avoid estrogen therapies even just in principle alone. However, if used correctly, estrogen is likely a powerful hair growth tool to consider for those who wish to utilize it to their benefit.
Ideal Forehead——
- Estrogen is known to have complex effects on hair. It can both promote and inhibit hair growth depending on the type of estrogen used.
The primary factor that seems to determine the outcome of estrogen on your hair is which type of estrogen receptor you are stimulating with that type of estrogen.
Types of Estrogen Receptors
The body has two types of estrogen receptors. These two estrogen receptors have dramatically different effects on hair growth.
1) ER-alpha
ER-alpha is the type of estrogen receptor you DON'T want to stimulate.
With hair, ER-alpha stimulation promotes catagen. Catagen is the cessation of hair growth. ie. The end of anagen (growth phase). After catagen comes telogen (hair shed). Any estrogen which stimulates ER-alpha predominantly will therefore stall hair growth and lead to hair shedding. (ref)
ER-alpha stimulation also may lead to osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. (ref)
2) ER-beta
ER-beta by contrast is the estrogen receptor you DO want to stimulate.
ER-beta signalling works by silencing the ER-alpha catagen signalling pathway. By blocking this catagen signalling, hair follicles can grow longer and spend more time in anagen. This leads to longer and healthier hair. (ref)
Types of Estrogen
To evaluate the usefulness of any type of estrogen, we therefore need to know to what extent they stimulate ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors.
1) 17 beta-Estradiol (E2)
The primary estrogen of the natural human body is 17 beta-estradiol. Estradiol binds equally well to ER-alpha and ER-beta. (ref)
Estradiol binds most strongly to the estrogen receptors of the natural estrogens. (ref) We can therefore use estradiol as a standard to compare other estrogen binding strengths, and rate estradiol as "100" binding strength for both receptors.
Because estradiol binds equally to ER-alpha and ER-beta, I would postulate that overall this may likely be considered a "good" estrogenic agent for promoting hair growth, but not the best as we will soon see.
2) Estrone (E1)
Estrone is the primary estrogen of menopause. It has been described as the "ugly estrogen". (ref)
Estrone has a binding affinity for ER-α of 60 and for ER-ß of 37 (relative to estradiol). (ref) This means it is primarily an ER-alpha stimulator, and thus can be considered absolutely undesirable for hair growth.
Estrone will lead to premature catagen of hair follicles. It is likely the reason postmenopausal women lose hair all over their heads and bodies.
3) Estriol (E3)
Estriol binds to ER-α with an affinity of 14 and to ER-ß with an affinity of 21. (ref)
This means it is the only natural estrogen with a greater ER-beta affinity than ER-alpha.
Estriol is therefore the primary estrogen we DO want to use for hair growth.
Estriol is most famous for shooting up dramatically after about 12 weeks pregnancy (ref), and it is credited in part for the fantastic glowing skin and long thick hair that pregnant women experience from this point of pregnancy onward.
Estriol has a half life of 6-9 hours with vaginal application, which may be similar to skin application. (ref) Twice a day application thus makes the most sense. It has a low affinity relative to the other estrogens (it is the weakest to bind), so larger amounts must be used if its effects are desired.
4) Ethinyl Estradiol (EE)
This is the primary estrogen used in birth control pills. Unfortunately, EE is a mostly ER-alpha stimulator. (ref) This likely makes it less useful for hair growth promotion (unless you are using it orally for chemical castration, which will help stop male pattern hair loss by shutting down all your androgen production).
Normal women can likely get away with EE usage in birth control pills because even on high dose contraception, they will still have their natural estrogens (E1, E2, E3) to provide ER-beta stimulation and help counteract EE's ER-alpha effect. (ref, ref)
However, EE will not provide benefits for hair in this context, and should likely be minimized or avoided compared to other estrogens if hair growth is the desired outcome.
Manipulating Estrogen Receptor Expression
As @Georgie pointed out in another thread, dexamethasone (a steroid) has been shown to decrease ER-alpha receptor expression by up to 38%, while having no effect on ER-beta receptor expression. (ref)
This means that topical steroids could in theory be used to downregulate ER-alpha receptors in the scalp and promote a more ER-beta predominant effect.
Dexamethasone is used in combination with 17 alpha-estradiol (alfatradiol) in a German product called Ell-Cranell Dexa. I am unsure of the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta stimulating balance of 17 alpha-estradiol, but presuming it is similar to 17 beta-estradiol, the mechanism of action for this product would make sense. The steroid will shift receptor balance towards ER-beta predominance, and estradiol will then bind to these increased ER-beta receptors, stimulating hair growth.
The problem with this approach is that topical steroids can lead to skin atrophy over time, so they are not a good long term treatment. Additionally, the same predominantly ER-beta stimulation can be accomplished much more simply by just using estriol cream instead.
So although it is interesting to conceptualize, I do not think the alfatradiol/dexamethasone combo is the most useful approach to manipulating estrogen pathways for hair growth.
Summary
In other words:
- ER-alpha signalling stimulates catagen (stopping hair growth dead)
- ER-beta signalling blocks the ER-alpha pathway (prolonging anagen and causing hair growth)
- Estradiol has a 1:1 alpha:beta binding ratio, estriol has a 3:2 beta:alpha binding ratio, and estrone has a 1.6:1 alpha:beta binding ratio (ref)
- Ethinyl estradiol has "ERα selective agonistic potency" (ref)
- Estriol (best) - 3:2 beta:alpha
- Estradiol (2nd best) - 1:1 beta:alpha
- Estrone (poor) - 1.6:1 alpha:beta
- Ethinyl estradiol (poor) - primarily alpha binding
For both men and women, the most useful approach to estrogen therapy in the pursuit of hair growth will therefore likely be a topical estriol cream applied directly to the areas of the hairline where stimulation is desired.
Fortunately, estriol creams are freely available most places over the counter. I have been using this one myself:
https://www.amazon.com/Bioidentical-Supplements-Micronized-Bio-Identical-Menopause/dp/B004XJIDEO
I have read a higher concentration of 0.3% estriol can be used in compounded creams for acne. This can also have an anti-aging effect. If you are brave, you can use it on your face as well for these benefits. (ref)
Primary risks of estrogen therapy in general for men will likely be sexual dysfunction. I have noticed some mild erectile dysfunction when I am using large amounts of estriol cream, but it doesn't bother me at this stage. Other risks for all estrogens are of blood clots, increased risk of breast cancer, etc. (ref)
For my own part, I will continue to use estriol for both hair growth promotion and anti-aging effect on my skin as I have been using it for about two months now and it has appeared to be quite effective for both. Dosage can easily be adjusted by using more or less cream to minimize side effects.
No treatment for hair loss or skin care is perfect or well suited for everyone. Most men will probably want to avoid estrogen therapies even just in principle alone. However, if used correctly, estrogen is likely a powerful hair growth tool to consider for those who wish to utilize it to their benefit.
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I stopped after 6 months and only use it occasionally now. I wasn't using anything else like minoxidil so it didn't really do much but perhaps a slight improvement. I am getting a chemist to formulate a 5% minoxidil 0.05% estriol mixture and will suppliment with a weekly dose of bi-estriol. I think for normal CIS guys who want to avoid breast growth and junk shrinkages a daily pump of bi-estriol is too much. I'm trying to find the sweet spot were advantages out weigh the disadvantages.
Nope. Since it is an overall weaker estrogen, I suspect that it is anti-estrogenic in the presence of estradiol.
inmyhead
Senior Member
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sh*t, seems like there isn't anything good to add to the regimen which helps and doesnt' turn you in a women. I wish some people shared their experiences instead of abandoning thread/forum completely.
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I know of little to nothing that indicates that any of the above is correct as applied, rather than speculated. I have had results from Biestro but it took feminizing amounts
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I think whatevr and a few other guys took estriol, a few said they saw some minor results initially, but eventually I know no one who benefited from it after several months. There are some promising substances being developed which are modified high powered versions of estriol, used for research on things like breast cancer IIRC, however they cost several thousand for a few weeks worth of the stuff.
I guess another factor is that a lot of carriers are transdermal, rather than dermal. So the substances are likely not spending enough time in the dermal layer and instead going into the serum too soon to be effective in the target areas.
So yeah our options are still basically the big 3 but with a few other options/modifications. Oral minoxidil is probably the most powerful. Topical finasteride on top of the oral might have the potential to reduce scalp DHT more. A topical antiandrogen is a better bet than topical estrogens at this point. If weekly wounding isn't working, then maybe a daily or EOD light rolling without bleeding method may help (SomebodyAlex's method).
I guess another factor is that a lot of carriers are transdermal, rather than dermal. So the substances are likely not spending enough time in the dermal layer and instead going into the serum too soon to be effective in the target areas.
So yeah our options are still basically the big 3 but with a few other options/modifications. Oral minoxidil is probably the most powerful. Topical finasteride on top of the oral might have the potential to reduce scalp DHT more. A topical antiandrogen is a better bet than topical estrogens at this point. If weekly wounding isn't working, then maybe a daily or EOD light rolling without bleeding method may help (SomebodyAlex's method).
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As close as I can get, here are some timeline pics from using Biestro some, then Biestro in feminizing amounts and then low-dose estradiol where I lost ground, particularly in terms of the "niceness" of my hair.
Roughly, Pic 1 is from June of 2017, Pic Two from fall of 2018, Pic Three from Spring of 2019, Pic Four from August of 2019, Pic Five from August of 2020 and Pic Six from July of 2021. Hair takes a long time and I am now 24 months past the low point of the Great spironolactone Shed of 2019.
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