Help with amount of finasteride to take?

[wstef]

I understand this has probably been asked to death but the information is so confusing and conflicting that I am completely lost. I've seem graphs which show that 1mg is no better than 0.25mg, but then others which show anything less than 1mg will be pointless

Anyway, what I think I have found from the internet minefield is:

- Taking 0.5mg of finasteride is around 60% - 80% as effective as taking 1mg in blocking the formation of DHT (serum DHT? I can't pretend I know the difference) but approximately equal to blocking the DHT which reaches the hair follicles (I didn't know it was able to differentiate between where the DHT is distributed, perhaps it's distributed to the specific internal organs which require it and any "left over" is shipped to the hair follicles?)

- Because of the above side effects are reduced because there's still DHT circulating in the body, which counteracts the effects of estradol since less testosterone is converted to it and DHT is important for the prostate (which in turn is important for penis function, especially sexual function)

- Even taking 0.02mg is effective if taken on a daily basis, and some studies show it's just as powerful as 1mg

- You can take finasteride every 2 or 3 days instead of daily because although it will be out of the body within a day it takes a lot longer than this time to reproduce the appropriate androgens, so popping finasteride after 2 days will "flat line" it again and it won't have time to attack the hair follicles.

- DHT is important for the development of neurosteroids, so too much suppression is likely the cause of sexual (and other) side effects; therefore reduce the intake, stop suppressing so much conversion to DHT, and stop/reduce side effects?

Is any of that remotely correct? My terminology will be shoddy but I hope it makes sense.

Also, I am relatively thin (10 stone, 140lbs, 64kg) so why would I need as much as a larger man who is, say, 14 stone/196lbs? Surely because I am smaller I will produce less of... most things?

The reason I ask is because I have started limiting Propecia to half a tablet (0.5mg) because of a side effect I am having (penis sensitivity is really lacking), so I hope it won't affect my progress which, so far, is really positive (except for the side effect, which is eating me up at the moment - I love orgasms!)

- - - Updated - - -

I keep seeing the graph below posted around online. Is it real? Does anyone know the source? I could knock up a graph like this with no issues...

 

[Bryan]

I have a few issues with what you said above:

1) The body "differentiates" between separate molecules of DHT according to WHERE THEY ARE PRODUCED. DHT isn't much of an endocrine hormone; it's mostly an autocrine or paracrine hormone. DHT normally isn't a hormone that gets into the bloodstream and then travels to far reaches of the body. It has a fairly limited effect at doing that. The DHT that harms hair follicles is mainly DHT that's produced right there INSIDE the hair follicle.

2) Show me a study that found that 0.02 mg per day of finasteride is "just as powerful" as 1 mg per day of finasteride. An early dose-ranging study by Merck did indeed find that larger doses of finastride were somewhat more effective at increasing hair-counts than smaller ones, although the test lasted only six months.

3) A single dose of finasteride is indeed pretty much gone after only a day or two, but it takes a fair amount of time for additional DHT to be produced because the enzyme that produces it and is inhibited by finasteride (5a-reductase type 2) is itself reproduced at a fairly slow rate. It takes a week or two for DHT to get completely back to "normal", even though the finasteride is long-gone by then.

4) Where did you ever get the idea that DHT is "important for the development of neurosteroids"?? The enzyme called 5a-reductase is what's responsible for creating neurosteroids, not DHT.

 

[antman]

median percent decrease from baseline in serum DHT levels of 49.5%, 68.6%, 71.4%, and 72.2% occurred in the 0.05, 0.2, 1, and 5 mg finasteride groups, respectively, with a clear dose-response effect observed.

Named - "Finasteride androgen skin (1999)" - in signature

Patients taking 1.0 and 0.2 mg per day of finasteride had significantly lower baseline levels and maximum suppressions of DHT (see Fig. 2). DHT levels returned to pretreatment values within 14 days of discontinuing treatment.

named - "Finasteride Development (1990)" - in signature

 

[wstef]

Bryan, I was questioning what I found and not stating it as fact so sorry if it appeared that way. I did, of course, mean 5ar for neurosteroids and not DHT; a simply slip up when typing.

Thanks for your response.

Antman, thanks for the stuff in your signature. There's lots to read there!

Like I said, the internet is a 'minefield' of information. It's completely contradictory depending on where you look; some places say tiny doses are near enough as good as larger ones, and other people have different opinions.

The graph I posted above - again, I am not sure about the source but it seems to be floating around the internet - suggests that 0.02% is only around 8% less effective than 5mg.

It's interesting that DHT is produced at the source (i.e. the follicles, the prostate). I always thought it was produced in the body and circulating since it appears people get their DHT levels tested with blood tests.

I used to think topical treatments which inhibit 5ar were pointless, but I guess if - somehow - the topical treatment was able to get into the follicles adequately then technically it should be as good at suppressing the formation of DHT as ingested treatment? However, it seems to be that topical finasteride is pretty much pointless.

A common consensus I seem to find is that 1mg is not necessarily what is required and smaller doses can produce similar, if not the same, results.

 

[Bryan]

It's interesting that DHT is produced at the source (i.e. the follicles, the prostate). I always thought it was produced in the body and circulating since it appears people get their DHT levels tested with blood tests.

There's only one relatively easy and inexpensive way to measure DHT, and that's with a simple blood test. That doesn't mean that measuring it with a blood test is the BEST way, for the reason I stated earlier. It's pretty much the only way we CAN measure it. I don't think anybody would want to pay the money to have somebody extract any of his hair follicles and try to have the DHT measured more directly, or have a biopsie done of his prostate (shudder!!).

I used to think topical treatments which inhibit 5ar were pointless, but I guess if - somehow - the topical treatment was able to get into the follicles adequately then technically it should be as good at suppressing the formation of DHT as ingested treatment? However, it seems to be that topical finasteride is pretty much pointless.

I've seen the results of topical finasteride studies vary all over the map. Sometimes it works a little bit, sometimes it doesn't work at all. I'd avoid messing with it.

 

[antman]

DHT is produced at the source but not all of it is immediately used in the surrounding tissues, some of it goes into the blood. The DHT in the blood is able to affect hair follicles which is why topical finasteride doesn't work - DHT from the prostate can cause balding unfortunately.

0.2mg of finasteride per day appears to be the minimum does to suppress skin DHT and serum DHT.

 

[wstef]

Thanks for the replies. I guess even if I know the science behind it I'm still going to experience side effects.

I have been researching into topical finasteride and there's no evidence to support it working.