Having a lot of trouble getting wavy/curly hair

[esc2000]

I have been ordering from one of the most reputable hair system makers for years. A problem I've run into is that my bio hair is very wavy and the systems I get always end up straight, creating some blending issues. You're probably thinking - just order it with some extra waviness! Yes but...

I do order with waviness, but I order a blonde system and dye it dark brown myself. By the time I am done coloring it, combing the hair color through, washing it, etc. it barely has any wave left in it. It feels like it just returns to its natural state (what I assume to be straight/processed indian hair). It feels like this is unavoidable if I want to keep coloring my own systems. I understand one of the options is to just not color my own, but I find that I can get a much more realistic outcome when I do color my own. Aside from giving up, here are my questions/hopes:

1) Does anyone out there actually sell naturally wavy Euro hair instead of straight Indian hair? I am willing to pay more. I'd rather just have the system maker source the wavy Euro hair, as it feels too complex to try to buy hair myself and send it to the hair system maker.
2) Maybe the vendor I am using just doesn't do this well. Has anyone out there gotten a curly/wavy system that has retained its curls even after coloring it themselves?
3) Perming/add curl myself is not an option I prefer, as I found it fries the hair a bit and causes all kinds of knots in it. But I guess that is a last resort.

Anyone that can help at all?

 

[HairlessWhisper]

I've never had an issue with hair color causing a perm to relax, whether it was a factory perm or I added the curl myself. Are you sure the hair you're getting is permed and not just heat-styled? It sounds like that could be the issue.

I know from dealing with Toplace pre-Covid that anything larger than a 17mm wave was just heat styled with a curling iron, and would wash out. I don't know that it's still an issue with this particular vendor, since Covid has shaken up everyone's supply chains. Just sayin' it's a thing.

In that case, washing it without coloring would wreck the waves, too.

If it is a chemical perm, I would suggest you try to avoid combing it out and maybe do an Olaplex 3 treatment after coloring to tighten it up.

Maybe the vendor I am using just doesn't do this well.

Bingo.

Has anyone out there gotten a curly/wavy system that has retained its curls even after coloring it themselves?

Countless times.

It's hard to suggest a particular vendor for this just because of the post-pandemic shakeup. Previously, Hairpiece Warehouse was my favorite in no small part because of the excellence of the curly/wavy hair. But I haven't put in an order with them since things got shaken up. I intend to eventually, though I'm all but certain their product is not the same now.

I've mostly been adding the wave myself, I did order a couple of wavy pieces direct on AliExpress in the last year. But the wave was added at the end, after ventilating the hair (which limits how short it can be cut), and I would have done a better job myself.

I found it fries the hair a bit and causes all kinds of knots in it.

The hair has to be in reasonably good condition to begin with. If it's not, the same thing will happen when the factory perms it. If it is, it's just a matter of choosing the right formula (unfortunately, the best one for wigs has been discontinued) and timing it right.

 

[esc2000]

Thanks, very educational response! I feel like a dummy for not realizing earlier that it was the vendor not doing the curl properly. I think this might be due to their factory changing during COVID.

I am thinking of pulling the trigger on a couple of new vendors to see what comes back with the best curl quality. I know you can't really know for sure, but would you recommend I try Hairpiece Warehouse? What are your thoughts on Lord Hair?

Thanks!

 

[HairlessWhisper]

I would say try Bysix, just because the hair was in better condition than the other suppliers I tried during Covid. But be sure to ask them upfront if the wave is a chemical perm, and whether it's done before or after they tie the hair into the base.

I don't like Lordhair at all. Hairpiece Warehouse, I can vouch for their customer service but haven't tried their hair post-Covid so who knows.

In general I think it's a good idea to try a bunch of different suppliers, but it's tough going lately.

 

[HairlessWhisper]

The most important thing for your needs is the condition of the hair. The reason is, if it gets too fried by the perm it's not going to hold the color very well when you color it afterwards. You don't need to worry about the color making the perm wash out, it's the other way around.

Virgin hair is not a bad idea, i haven't messed with that personally, I don't remember where to get it off the top of my head, but it's not a bad idea.

Don't use anything stronger than a Vol 10 developer since you're not lifting color, just depositing. Even with more peroxide, though, you might loosen the curl very slightly but nothing like what you described.

 

[esc2000]

I would say try Bysix, just because the hair was in better condition than the other suppliers I tried during Covid. But be sure to ask them upfront if the wave is a chemical perm, and whether it's done before or after they tie the hair into the base.

I don't like Lordhair at all. Hairpiece Warehouse, I can vouch for their customer service but haven't tried their hair post-Covid so who knows.

In general I think it's a good idea to try a bunch of different suppliers, but it's tough going lately.

Thanks again for your reply. Is it best to have it "chemically permed before ventilation"? I assume that creates long-lasting curls all the way to the base, right?

With respect to Bysix, two questions:
1. Do you know roughly how to translate Bysix curl levels to cm/mm? Like what would you say Wavy corresponds to? 2.3cm? And what about Curly? I can email them I guess but wasn't sure if you had a sense of it.
2. You mentioned in another post that your Bysix poly piece "required extensive alterations to make it wearable". Anything I should watch out for? That doesn't sound too great lol.

The most important thing for your needs is the condition of the hair. The reason is, if it gets too fried by the perm it's not going to hold the color very well when you color it afterwards. You don't need to worry about the color making the perm wash out, it's the other way around.

Virgin hair is not a bad idea, i haven't messed with that personally, I don't remember where to get it off the top of my head, but it's not a bad idea.

Don't use anything stronger than a Vol 10 developer since you're not lifting color, just depositing. Even with more peroxide, though, you might loosen the curl very slightly but nothing like what you described.

Yeah I always use some Wella with Vol 10 developer. Never had an issue with the hair color not holding, but maybe that's because what I received has never been properly chemically permed.

 

[HairlessWhisper]

Re: your questions

1. you should ask them. I ordered a stock and permed it.

2. i carved an irregular hairline with a widow's peak into that piece and cut the hair very short, exposing what i consider to be cut corners with the knotting. this is very common. the company would probably say it's not a defect, and that i shouldn't cut it so short or carve into the hairline. I don't want to accept those limitations and I am willing to bend over backwards to make what I want out of what I can source.

generally, i am fussy and particular about the knotting, and less so about the condition of the hair because i'm basically cutting it all off. my recent pieces have been buzz cut short, so short that i don't need curls and i'm ordering them from a factory that does excellent knotting, but the hair is trash.

It's all a tradeoff IME. Back in the day, HPW had excellent hair, excellent knotting, but the poly bases were much thicker than other companies'. I haven't found the perfect hairpiece. I prioritize certain attributes over others according to the look and style I want to achieve at any given moment.

Assuming you plan to cut the hair to a normal length for a hairpiece and leave the hairline intact, it'll probably be fine. I think most wearers wouldn't be bothered by the same things as me, but probably a lot of people would say the hairline on that Bysix piece was too thick, a "wall of hair". If you're ordering a custom you can request different densities in different sections, though.

It is not a glowing recommendation. I have ordered from a bunch of different companies in the last 2 or 3 years and their hair was in the best condition of any of them, but that's really all i have to recommend them for. Sorry

At some point in the next few days i'll try to upload pics of old units that were permed before and after ventilation so you can see the difference. Actually I think the ones that are curled after tend to have curls closer to the base. The issue is rather that the hair won't lay flat enough if that's what you want it to do and the brickwork pattern of the rollers may show if you cut it very short, i.e. the hair will 'part' in the spaces between where the rollers were. It might not matter much or at all depending on the style you desire.

 

[esc2000]

BTW

Re: your questions

1. you should ask them. I ordered a stock and permed it.

2. i carved an irregular hairline with a widow's peak into that piece and cut the hair very short, exposing what i consider to be cut corners with the knotting. this is very common. the company would probably say it's not a defect, and that i shouldn't cut it so short or carve into the hairline. I don't want to accept those limitations and I am willing to bend over backwards to make what I want out of what I can source.

generally, i am fussy and particular about the knotting, and less so about the condition of the hair because i'm basically cutting it all off. my recent pieces have been buzz cut short, so short that i don't need curls and i'm ordering them from a factory that does excellent knotting, but the hair is trash.

It's all a tradeoff IME. Back in the day, HPW had excellent hair, excellent knotting, but the poly bases were much thicker than other companies'. I haven't found the perfect hairpiece. I prioritize certain attributes over others according to the look and style I want to achieve at any given moment.

Assuming you plan to cut the hair to a normal length for a hairpiece and leave the hairline intact, it'll probably be fine. I think most wearers wouldn't be bothered by the same things as me, but probably a lot of people would say the hairline on that Bysix piece was too thick, a "wall of hair". If you're ordering a custom you can request different densities in different sections, though.

It is not a glowing recommendation. I have ordered from a bunch of different companies in the last 2 or 3 years and their hair was in the best condition of any of them, but that's really all i have to recommend them for. Sorry

At some point in the next few days i'll try to upload pics of old units that were permed before and after ventilation so you can see the difference. Actually I think the ones that are curled after tend to have curls closer to the base. The issue is rather that the hair won't lay flat enough if that's what you want it to do and the brickwork pattern of the rollers may show if you cut it very short, i.e. the hair will 'part' in the spaces between where the rollers were. It might not matter much or at all depending on the style you desire.

BTW what do you mean by quality of knotting? Like single knotting throughout? Does anyone do that?

 

[HairlessWhisper]

To clarify, I was using the term "knotting" interchangeably with "ventilation". I have mostly worn v-looped and injected poly units, so technically these aren't "knots".

Bad knotting when it comes to v-loop poly = the loops are too large, or spaced too far apart, or have too many hairs per loop. That's become much more common since Covid.

It's more or less a similar story with injection. Too many hairs per injection "knot" results in a pluggy look. Spacing them too far apart makes this more obvious. But, it's a way to ventilate the same amount of hair into the base faster and cheaper (because it's not as labor intensive).

The thing i especially don't like is the "patchy" way many factories ventilate v-loop pieces, with small areas of very high density alternating with small areas that are bare or very sparse. The hair is distributed very unevenly. That was the issue with the Bysix piece I ordered, though it's very very common nowadays, it's pretty much what you get. The spacing and size of the loops, and the number of hairs per loop were 'okay' (i.e. not very fine tuned but by no means the worst of the pieces I ordered around that time).

Some factories don't do a graduated hairline properly, what they do is make a wall of hair in the front, and then to soften the appearance of the hairline slightly they leave some gaps directly behind it which are very sparse. This was common pre-pandemic too, and I didn't like it then when I encountered it. But now that the loops are, on the whole, larger and more broadly spaced, so are the sparse areas.

So the Bysix piece, when I carved into the hairline, I ended up with a patch or two of bare poly right at the very front. For a short, curly textured, brushed back style. At this point, most people would probably say, 'shoot, I guess i have to comb it forward now'. Many wouldn't have cut into the hairline to begin with. I'm not normal or sane, so I ended up removing the entire front section of the unit, and grafting on a section of the base that I'd trimmed from the side which had a more even distribution of hair. And that became the hairline. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned "major alterations" in an old post. Once I did that (and permed it and colored it and cut it), I was very happy with how it looked.

I send cuttings from old HPW units to every new factory I try as a reference for the "knotting standard", and nobody has been able to match it. They've been slower than most to 'recover' and still can't supply injected skin.

 

[esc2000]

Actually one more question on what you said earlier about "avoiding combing out the perm". How do you color your blonde pieces? I color by combing the color through the hair. I believe it is this process that somehow removes the perm.

Do you also comb through the hair when you color? Or do you take another approach to coloring from blonde? Combing through gives me excellent results and is relatively easy. But maybe there is a better way I am not aware of that prevents losing the perm...

 

[HairlessWhisper]

I use a tint brush with a pin tail to apply the color and the tail end to section and separate the hair. I rinse it out and let it air dry, then I go back in with a tiny razor cleaning brush to do the "roots" closest to the base (again using the tail end of the tint brush to separate).

However, I very much doubt that applying the hair dye with a comb is the thing that's wrecking your curls. I've done it that way in the past and it wasn't a problem. I also comb the color through on my buzz cut pieces, some of which I've permed without rollers to set the direction of the hair (cowlicks, etc).

It's just generally not a good idea to comb out the hair if your curls are too loose and you're trying to tighten then up. But if it's a perm, then wetting the hair afterwards should restore the curls.