Hair Looks Thin When Wet But No Miniaturisation. Still Balding Or What?

[salamander]

Hi all, male, 25.

I recently saw a dermatologist who checked my hair for miniaturisation. I have a tiny but on the corners of my hairline, but he said it was nothing to worry about, as I didn't have any beyond the hairline. I did have a tiny bit of miniaturisation at the top of my head (bit between crown and hairline), but he said out of the around 80/90 hairs he saw, only 2/3 were miniaturised, so I left the clinic being told that I am not suffering from baldness as I had well under 5% miniaturisation.

However, the dermatologist wet my hair and took some pictures, and I saw that my hair looked incredibly thin when wet. The doctor also mentioned that I had more density in the back then compared to the top. But, when my hair is dry, it looks fine.

At the back, towards my crown, I have virtually no miniaturisation, but it still looks thin there too?

Please take a look at the photos. Can I still be balding without miniaturisation? I've also attached a frontal view to show my hairline and corners.

Finally, am I a NW1 or NW2?

Thanks all.

 

[salamander]

Your hairline looks solid. It just looks diffuse on top to me. If you can, try Minoxidil. And if you want
to brave it out, maybe Finasteride or dutasteride (some guys use it here).

If you live in the US, Minoxidil is cheap and probably doesn't have mch side effects. But it will take
longer to see results, if you get them (12 - 16 weeks). Finasteride will take six weeks to get results.

Thanks man. I've read up on Minoxidil, but can I ask, can I be a diffuse thinner without any signs of miniaturisation? is diffuse thinning different to male pattern baldness?

 

[Tano1]

Being on finasteride for over a year now I can say you don't see results immediately. If anything it can make you shed so you may look worse before you look better. I read that it works great on diffuse thinners. To me I haven't noticed any significant hair thickening, if anything it slowed or halted my hair loss but it will take at least 6 months to see results. Everyone is different and I can guarantee you that for the few lucky people that have hair thickening, it doesn't happen within a month. They have to shed first to grow back thicker. Or if it there's no visible thickening of fine hair then you will need to wait at least a year and monitor your hair loss to assess whether or not it is slowing or halting any further progression of hair loss. That's IF you even have hair loss because according to your doctor you have very little miniaturization. Some people can have naturally thin hair so when wet it will just appear like you are thinning out. To me you either have naturally thin hair, or you could be a diffuse thinner. I'm not a doctor but if you didn't always have thin hair judging by your pictures, I'd start propecia or minoxidil right now just to be safe! That or try taking better care of your hair: stay away from shampoos with harmful chemicals, don't tug or pull on your hair as that can lead to breakage, quit habits that can cause hair loss such as smoking, and use a wider tooth comb or your own hands to style! Hope I was a bit of help to you

 

[salamander]

Being on finasteride for over a year now I can say you don't see results immediately. If anything it can make you shed so you may look worse before you look better. I read that it works great on diffuse thinners. To me I haven't noticed any significant hair thickening, if anything it slowed or halted my hair loss but it will take at least 6 months to see results. Everyone is different and I can guarantee you that for the few lucky people that have hair thickening, it doesn't happen within a month. They have to shed first to grow back thicker. Or if it there's no visible thickening of fine hair then you will need to wait at least a year and monitor your hair loss to assess whether or not it is slowing or halting any further progression of hair loss. That's IF you even have hair loss because according to your doctor you have very little miniaturization. Some people can have naturally thin hair so when wet it will just appear like you are thinning out. To me you either have naturally thin hair, or you could be a diffuse thinner. I'm not a doctor but if you didn't always have thin hair judging by your pictures, I'd start propecia or minoxidil right now just to be safe! That or try taking better care of your hair: stay away from shampoos with harmful chemicals, don't tug or pull on your hair as that can lead to breakage, quit habits that can cause hair loss such as smoking, and use a wider tooth comb or your own hands to style! Hope I was a bit of help to you

Thank you. Yeah I'm just a bit wary about starting any treatments as there is literally no miniaturisation according to my doctor, and when I persisted on asking for a score he said it was well under 5%.

Another person I saw stated that I have thin hair 'but lots of it', as when they examined my crown area, i had many hairs coming out of one follicle.

Based on what you have said, I've found these pictures of the top of my hair whilst on holiday from around 5/6 years ago. My hair is slightly wet here. What do you guys think? Same as the 2016 pics i've uploaded or has my hair thinned out, without getting miniaturised?

 

[Tano1]

Now I don't want to be the bearer of bad news as I could be wrong, but I'd rather help you than just play it off like there's no issue. Again, I'm not a doctor but this is based on my opinion. You could very well be in the early stages of diffuse thinning which means you thin all over the top of your head. Some people have naturally thin sides so I wouldn't be alarmed with your side burns or the area behind your ears, but the top can be concerning. My hair loss started EXACTLY the way yours looks right now in those 2 pictures you just sent. I would also say we have the same hair color and texture. In fact, my hair looks pretty much exactly like yours, but I do have diffuse thinning. Another thing to consider, although some people have no signs of balding, hair will naturally get thinner as we age so if you are say 30 years old right now then your hair looks very appropriate for your age. Here is some great news for you though, a doctor I spoke with about hair transplantation looked at my hair in person and easily assessed I have nice thick hair in my donor and denied me a crown transplant because he said I just didn't have enough hair loss in that area. Other doctors I sent photos to are eager to transplant on me right away because they said my donor area is great, why? Because they know they'll get a great result! I know I'm talking about myself and not your situation but I'm actually trying to tell you that our hair is the same! So if I was to get great results from a professional hair transplant surgeon, then I'm positive you would get great results from that same surgeon!Your hair looks great on the sides so I'm sure it looks great on the back where your donor area is. Which means you'd be an excellent candidate for hair transplants if needed. I'm not telling you to go off and get one but all I'm saying is that you have a GREAT back up if in fact you do start experiencing hair loss. Also I'll end with a small note: mirrors, lighting, angles, and cameras can give you a more thinner look than what your hair actually looks like to other people! Trust me I've taken countless photos and videos of my hair in different scenarios, angles and mirrors!

 

[salamander]

Now I don't want to be the bearer of bad news as I could be wrong, but I'd rather help you than just play it off like there's no issue. Again, I'm not a doctor but this is based on my opinion. You could very well be in the early stages of diffuse thinning which means you thin all over the top of your head. Some people have naturally thin sides so I wouldn't be alarmed with your side burns or the area behind your ears, but the top can be concerning. My hair loss started EXACTLY the way yours looks right now in those 2 pictures you just sent. I would also say we have the same hair color and texture. In fact, my hair looks pretty much exactly like yours, but I do have diffuse thinning. Another thing to consider, although some people have no signs of balding, hair will naturally get thinner as we age so if you are say 30 years old right now then your hair looks very appropriate for your age. Here is some great news for you though, a doctor I spoke with about hair transplantation looked at my hair in person and easily assessed I have nice thick hair in my donor and denied me a crown transplant because he said I just didn't have enough hair loss in that area. Other doctors I sent photos to are eager to transplant on me right away because they said my donor area is great, why? Because they know they'll get a great result! I know I'm talking about myself and not your situation but I'm actually trying to tell you that our hair is the same! So if I was to get great results from a professional hair transplant surgeon, then I'm positive you would get great results from that same surgeon!Your hair looks great on the sides so I'm sure it looks great on the back where your donor area is. Which means you'd be an excellent candidate for hair transplants if needed. I'm not telling you to go off and get one but all I'm saying is that you have a GREAT back up if in fact you do start experiencing hair loss. Also I'll end with a small note: mirrors, lighting, angles, and cameras can give you a more thinner look than what your hair actually looks like to other people! Trust me I've taken countless photos and videos of my hair in different scenarios, angles and mirrors!

Thank you for your detailed response! The above 2 photos were taken when I was 18/19. The pictures in the first post are from today and I am 25 years old.

I'm just a bit concerned as I have no miniturisation, so doesn't that theoretically mean I am not balding? The doctor did say I had less density on the top then compared to the back of my head, though.

Also I forgot to add, my hair pull test was negative, only 1 or 2 hairs came out.

I just want to know definitively, I understand male pattern baldness is due to miniturisation, however is diffuse thinning down to the same miniturisation process, or something else?

 

[salamander]

Thread bump.

 

[atthekeysbored]

Very bad temple diffusion and moderately bad scalp diffusion. Your hairline has also matured/ head growth. What is saving you from being "bald early" is that you started off with very high density. As it stands now I think you will have serious cosmetic effects in 5 years or less.

 

[salamander]

Very bad temple diffusion and moderately bad scalp diffusion. Your hairline has also matured/ head growth. What is saving you from being "bald early" is that you started off with very high density. As it stands now I think you will have serious cosmetic effects in 5 years or less.

Thanks. So it's possible to be a diffuse thinner without miniturisation?

EDIT - I've found a few links which state that diffuse thinning is also caused by miniturisation. Has anyone else heard/read this? Therefore if this sounds correct, is it unlikely that I'm balding as I have no miniturisation?

 

[Tano1]

Thank you for your detailed response! The above 2 photos were taken when I was 18/19. The pictures in the first post are from today and I am 25 years old.

I'm just a bit concerned as I have no miniturisation, so doesn't that theoretically mean I am not balding? The doctor did say I had less density on the top then compared to the back of my head, though.

Also I forgot to add, my hair pull test was negative, only 1 or 2 hairs came out.

I just want to know definitively, I understand male pattern baldness is due to miniturisation, however is diffuse thinning down to the same miniturisation process, or something else?

Thank you for your detailed response! The above 2 photos were taken when I was 18/19. The pictures in the first post are from today and I am 25 years old.

I'm just a bit concerned as I have no miniturisation, so doesn't that theoretically mean I am not balding? The doctor did say I had less density on the top then compared to the back of my head, though.

Also I forgot to add, my hair pull test was negative, only 1 or 2 hairs came out.

I just want to know definitively, I understand male pattern baldness is due to miniturisation, however is diffuse thinning down to the same miniturisation process, or something else?

No that does not mean that you aren't balding or won't start balding later on. What he can see is what is on the surface of the scalp, but I don't believe he can see any hair follicles that lie dormant inside the scalp that were once terminal hairs. The hair on top is also more vulnerable to DHT as the back of the hair is not so that could very well explain why you have thicker hair in the back. Diffuse thinners are tricky, they thin all over the top to end up forming the classic horseshoe pattern. That's not the worst part, they don't advance in the Norwood scale like your typical guy with male pattern baldness. We can go from a Norwood 1 or 2 and then you sort of skip 3 and 4 and all of a sudden end up at a Norwood 5 or 6. The reason for that is because again, diffuse thinners have miniaturization all over the top instead of just in the crown and the frontal areas. So as the entire top is thinning then the hairs start becoming transparent and light can hit your scalp, which means you'll be able to see your entire scalp eventually on top of your head before you have even lost all your hair. I'll also add that with miniaturization, the hair keeps growing back thinner after every shed cycle. So if your doctor told you that you have only 5% miniaturization, he might not have taken into account that some of your hair has already miniaturized fully and lies dormant inside your scalp. This is just a possibility and it doesn't mean you are or aren't balding. As I said before, the aging process could be the culprit as well.

 

[abcdefg]

Everyone balding has miniaturization. You cant be bald without miniaturization so if you dont have any then your not balding. It just depends if you are missing hair or it was always like that.

 

[salamander]

No that does not mean that you aren't balding or won't start balding later on. What he can see is what is on the surface of the scalp, but I don't believe he can see any hair follicles that lie dormant inside the scalp that were once terminal hairs. The hair on top is also more vulnerable to DHT as the back of the hair is not so that could very well explain why you have thicker hair in the back. Diffuse thinners are tricky, they thin all over the top to end up forming the classic horseshoe pattern. That's not the worst part, they don't advance in the Norwood scale like your typical guy with male pattern baldness. We can go from a Norwood 1 or 2 and then you sort of skip 3 and 4 and all of a sudden end up at a Norwood 5 or 6. The reason for that is because again, diffuse thinners have miniaturization all over the top instead of just in the crown and the frontal areas. So as the entire top is thinning then the hairs start becoming transparent and light can hit your scalp, which means you'll be able to see your entire scalp eventually on top of your head before you have even lost all your hair. I'll also add that with miniaturization, the hair keeps growing back thinner after every shed cycle. So if your doctor told you that you have only 5% miniaturization, he might not have taken into account that some of your hair has already miniaturized fully and lies dormant inside your scalp. This is just a possibility and it doesn't mean you are or aren't balding. As I said before, the aging process could be the culprit as well.

Thank you again for taking the time to reply! I really appreciate it from everyone here.

My dermatologist is one of the best in the country, and specialises in hairloss, i'm kicking myself for not asking this question to them directly, but unfortunately my time ran out.

You state that the above user can see the surface of my scalp but can't see any dormant hair follicles (i'm guessing as i'm using a normal camera and not the microscopic ones the doctors use). However, could my doctor have not seen any dormant hair follicles when he used the microscopic camera and therefore mention it to me?

Furthermore, I never thought of this but when hair is wet, or even when non wet, if you spike up your hair, won't scalp show through with anyone, even if they aren't balding as the hair has been pushed up?



When my hair is dry, you couldn't say I was balding. It looks thick. Also when I run my hand through my hair I can't tell of any loss of density, nor do any hairs fall out.

There is one thing I have forgot to mention. I am suffering from seborrheic dermatitis for the past 4/5 years or so, and have applied some pretty potent steroid applications to my head, especially the sides and a couple of cm in front of the my hairline. Could this have caused me to lose density? Are there other ways to lose hair besides miniaturisation? Or could my hair density have always been like this, albeit made worse by the scalp eczema?

I'm just finding this really confusing, as for example, near my crown where it looks quite bad when wet, 2 doctors have now said I have no miniaturisation there, I even have new hairs growing (could see it breaking through the skin).

I've also uploaded some new photos here. Page 1 is basically my hair pushed up, albeit slightly greasy as I haven't washed it in around 2/3 days. The first 5 photos on page 2 are also new, as they show my hair pushed up with again greasy hair, however the last 11photos are the same as the above uploaded photos in the first post, with my hair wet.

Thanks all and sorry for the long post!

Everyone balding has miniaturization. You cant be bald without miniaturization so if you dont have any then your not balding. It just depends if you are missing hair or it was always like that.

Thank you for your reply. Yup the doctor confirmed I have slight miniaturisation on the corners of temple, but nothing beyond the hairline apart from a bit in the top/middle of my scalp where out of approximately 80/90 hairs, I had 3 miniaturised hairs, so less than 5% which he said was normal.

As you can probably tell, i'm worried that i'm balding even though the report he gave me said overall I have no miniaturisation apart form hairline, purely because my hair looks bad when wet and pushed back even when greasy.

So apart form miniaturisation, there is no other way to go bald? Even if i'm balding in a diffusing pattern and not normal male pattern baldness?

 

[Jack547]

Bro, I'm 30, I think you look good. My hair is still holding but I'm a diffuse thinner too. Here's what I would say, from the front you look real good. The back looks thin but from your pictures at 18/19 it looks just the same which leads me to believe that's what you look like naturally and you're not balding. If I were you, I wouldn't mess with finasteride or minoxidil. I'd wait and see if it gets worse. I would say at 25 my hair was much thicker in the crown, however, I always had thicker hair and from your younger pics you don't, at least in the crown. i think you're good. Go out and enjoy your life. Transplants are a long way off if you ever even wanted to go that route. I suspect at 50 you won't care. Dudes who have transplants when they're older are suspect. But to each their own.

BTW, I also got seborehic dermatitis from not washing my hair throroughly. This was due to my OCD of thinking the more I washed my hair the worse it got. They gave me 2% Ketoconazole and it makes me shed bad. Thick dandruff on your scalp can't be good for growth. That's how I feel. How much do you lose in the shower and combing?

 

[salamander]

Bro, I'm 30, I think you look good. My hair is still holding but I'm a diffuse thinner too. Here's what I would say, from the front you look real good. The back looks thin but from your pictures at 18/19 it looks just the same which leads me to believe that's what you look like naturally and you're not balding. If I were you, I wouldn't mess with finasteride or minoxidil. I'd wait and see if it gets worse. I would say at 25 my hair was much thicker in the crown, however, I always had thicker hair and from your younger pics you don't, at least in the crown. i think you're good. Go out and enjoy your life. Transplants are a long way off if you ever even wanted to go that route. I suspect at 50 you won't care. Dudes who have transplants when they're older are suspect. But to each their own.

BTW, I also got seborehic dermatitis from not washing my hair throroughly. This was due to my OCD of thinking the more I washed my hair the worse it got. They gave me 2% Ketoconazole and it makes me shed bad. Thick dandruff on your scalp can't be good for growth. That's how I feel. How much do you lose in the shower and combing?

Thanks man. Yeah i've got a feeling my hair has always been like this. When I grow it out to the stage it is now, and run my hair through it, it feels the same, haven't notice the texture or thickness declining, but ofc, this isn't a scientific test.

Thankfully i've got rid of my seborrheic dermatitis by using apple cider vinegar. Mix 50% bragg's apple cider vinegar and 50% water into a small water droplet bottle, then apply to areas. I applied it to my sides, corners and top middle of scalp as that is where I used to get eczema. I did this everyday for around a month and my scalp eczema was gone. Leave the acv solution on your hair for about 30 mins/1 hour before washing off. I do get some bouts of small eczema on scalp every couple of months, but one solution of acv and water a 2/3 times and it's gone, and i'm good for a few months again.

Trust me I know the pain, they gave me nizoral, dermovate, everything under the kitchen sink and it didn't work. It got so bad at a point that dermovate stopped working, which was the strongest steroid they could give (and no doubt it fucked up my hair, that bit in the middle of my scalp, just in front of the middle of my hairline, I had eczema really bad, I pulled out multiple hairs at a time when I scratched but my normal family doctor said it would grow back, which I think it has somewhat), it is really strong and they let me use it for years, instead of the maximum time of 2 weeks! When I used to scratch the top and sides, my hair used to come out attached to this thick yellow sebum that attached to my hair, and literally hairs would just be pulled out as the scratch was so bad.

Try the ACV. It will do wonders for your scalp eczema!

Oh and I lose around 50/60 hairs when I wash daily (I bought one of those plughole catchers), and i've never combed my hair in my life (is that bad?). I'm also not shedding as the doctor asked me if I had any hairs on pillow, I sleep with a towel on pillow due to eczema and I count maybe 5 hairs after a few days of changing towel. Doctor also did pull test which he said was negative, as only 2 hairs were pulled.

I think for us eczema sufferers, we have to wash our hair pretty much daily, as for me, the grease builds up after a day, especially if i've been working on Uni stuff/exams for some reason, or even playing sports, and that causes itch, dirt, which I think exacerbates eczema or maybe even causes it, i'm not sure.

 

[Jack547]

Yeah, I will give it a shot. Thanks for the tip! I lose a lot of hair in the shower too. If I wash my hair after about 3 days off I'll get a nice drain plug full. As soon as I get in and run my hair threw the shower with my fingers, if I pull my hands out of my hair and there's hair all over them it's going to be a bad day haha. Also, on my bad shower sheds in gets on my shoulders. My girlfriend assures me this is normal as she pulls clumps of hair out of her bum in the shower (she does have a big one to be fair).

For me, I've noticed definite thinning but I also have major thyroid problems. I've been to Harvard Dermatologists and the whole bit myself and they contradict each other on if I even have male pattern baldness. One doctor told me I had the beginnings another said boldly: "you'll never go bald." Lol How can he be so sure?!.

It's not bad that you don't use a comb. That's great! It's one less opportunity to lose hair! You have the perfect curly hair to not have to. I'd like to see your dry hair pictures if you have any!

My hair also comes out with sebum crust when I itch. It's gross! It got so bad I had dandruff boulders on my scalp hidden behind my hair. I got so fed up I shaved it off 3 weeks ago. I'll enclose a picture of my hair dry right before I cut it 3 weeks ago and after the cut wet.

 

[salamander]

View attachment 41163 View attachment 41164

Yeah, I will give it a shot. Thanks for the tip! I lose a lot of hair in the shower too. If I wash my hair after about 3 days off I'll get a nice drain plug full. As soon as I get in and run my hair threw the shower with my fingers, if I pull my hands out of my hair and there's hair all over them it's going to be a bad day haha. Also, on my bad shower sheds in gets on my shoulders. My girlfriend assures me this is normal as she pulls clumps of hair out of her bum in the shower (she does have a big one to be fair).

For me, I've noticed definite thinning but I also have major thyroid problems. I've been to Harvard Dermatologists and the whole bit myself and they contradict each other on if I even have male pattern baldness. One doctor told me I had the beginnings another said boldly: "you'll never go bald." Lol How can he be so sure?!.

It's not bad that you don't use a comb. That's great! It's one less opportunity to lose hair! You have the perfect curly hair to not have to. I'd like to see your dry hair pictures if you have any!

My hair also comes out with sebum crust when I itch. It's gross! It got so bad I had dandruff boulders on my scalp hidden behind my hair. I got so fed up I shaved it off 3 weeks ago. I'll enclose a picture of my hair dry right before I cut it 3 weeks ago and after the cut wet.

Yeah sure, I've attached some dry hair pics. These were taken under direct bathroom light and under direct sunlight with my hair pushed back. I think it looks fine?

If I lie it down, like in the last picture, I think it looks fine?

Also attached a picture with me in the blue top and army gear, that was taken at 18 when I left Cadets as I aged out so it's a good 6 /7 years old - Hair seems dry there and short. Does this show my hair has always been thinner in terms of density.

What does everyone else think? Would appreciate more opinions.

Thanks

 

[Tano1]

There are many different types of hair loss, some permanent and others temporary. Based on what you're telling me now about the steroid, it could also be the cause for hair loss. I have a good friend who took steroids but keep in mind he INJECTED them. He had hair loss because of this and it is proven to cause hair loss. Other factors could be damaging your hair like some people who bleach for highlights or pulling it back like those man buns that are in style nowadays. I am not sure if the steroid you used causes hair loss but you might want to research it some more. Your hair looks great and yes when you spike it up or comb it a certain way sometimes you can see natural partings which is just natural in people so some scalp will show in some places. I would assume your doctors know what they're doing then if they say you have no hair loss. However, doctors aren't always right. take it from me, don't get so alarmed over it, but do be cautious because if it turns out that you are indeed losing hair, then you can still save a lot of it! If you ask me, I'd say pay close attention to your crown because that's what seems to be the area of concern.

 

[salamander]

Very bad temple diffusion and moderately bad scalp diffusion. Your hairline has also matured/ head growth. What is saving you from being "bald early" is that you started off with very high density. As it stands now I think you will have serious cosmetic effects in 5 years or less.

Hi, thanks for your reply. Can I ask, what exactly is head growth?

Thanks

 

[salamander]

Bump.

Can someone please explain what 'head growth is'?

Thanks