For The Naysayers And The Hopeless... Consider This

[Ted Buckland]

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[Cody1212]

Man things are dead on these forums. Half way through 2017 and 3/4 of the way through the decade and it's quiet. We have gotten reboost released this year, fake dick cream. Sad.

 

[Spanishboy97]

Man things are dead on these forums. Half way through 2017 and 3/4 of the way through the decade and it's quiet. We have gotten reboost released this year, fake dick cream. Sad.

Well nothing was supposed to be released this year was it?

 

[pegasus2]

Well nothing was supposed to be released this year was it?

Histogen and Brotzu, and there was some hope for Follica.

 

[Rofler]

At present this can be done maybe a thousand times or so before the quality of the duplicate degrades.

Where did you get that info? If that's true we have a cure for Norwood 1-3 already.

 

[Michel F. II]

that's not true. if any, those cells can be multiplied by 2 or 3 times maximum before they lose the necessary gene expression. of course we would have a functional cure already if it were like you say.
i was in the believe that it can't even be multiplied a single time with current techniques to keep the new cells equal. that's the main problem the scientists are facing for over 2 decades.
but probably tsuji figured out the right way already.

No, if he had, he would be nobel laureate already.
They are trying. And they are not the only ones. And that's some pretty good news.

 

[Stupidon]

that's not true. if any, those cells can be multiplied by 2 or 3 times maximum before they lose the necessary gene expression. of course we would have a functional cure already if it were like you say.
i was in the believe that it can't even be multiplied a single time with current techniques to keep the new cells equal. that's the main problem the scientists are facing for over 2 decades.
but probably tsuji figured out the right way already.

3 times... harvest 3k you get 9k. That's a cure.

 

[Rofler]

3 times... harvest 3k you get 9k. That's a cure.

I think cure is about 10 times.

 

[Rofler]

Mr. Toyoshima: Generally speaking, it is said that there is a limit to stem cell proliferation. It is generally known that the stem cell function is lost with proliferation, therefore yes, there is limit to stem cell proliferation. In case of human follicular papilla cells having the function as the mesenchymal stem cells, the stems cells can be multiplied by several thousands of times in 3 weeks when we use our technologies. On the other hand, as for the epithelial stem cells, as I mentioned earlier we are still in research for this, therefore there is only a small number of human cases. Consequently, an accurate value for this case is yet to be determined in the near future. However, collectively from these researches, we think that we may be increase follicles at least by about 1,000 times.

So you want to say that Tsuji's team tries to increase multiplication rate? Like from 100 to 1000?

 

[rlf]

Where did you get that info? If that's true we have a cure for Norwood 1-3 already.

We have, it's called hair transplant.

 

[Spanishboy97]

you have misunderstood the whole thing a bit.
for the creation of new follicle primordiums there are 2 cell types required, which both have to be multiplied by a factor of 1000 as the final goal. this would mean that you extract 30 donor follicles, dissect them and multiply its cells through 10 passages to create 1000x more cells, which could create 30.000 new follicles. at first 1 cell divides into 2 cells. those 2 cells divide into 4 cells, then 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024.

as it stands today, one of the two cell types is possible to culture (multiply) relatively well, but the other not yet without losing the required gene expression. even after the first passage (when the first cell divides into 2 cells) the gene expression is lost. that's the whole problem we are facing since 2 decades. you have to culture the cells with the right conditions (growth medium with right chemical signaling). in the past, tsuji, jahoda, tissuse (TU berlin) and who not all failed to do that.

however, recently tsuji mentioned they are close and he is very optimistic they will solve that last problem very soon or with the next trial respectively. this remains to be seen.
until that problem isn't solved, you can't even create 2 identical cells from 1.
of course, for a cure we wouldn't need 10 full passages for a total multiplication factor of 1000, but at least 4 passages would be nice. you could then harvest 2000 donor follicles (instead of 30), then multiply them 4 times (4000,8000,16000,32000) and then you have 32000 primordiums to implant. even if only half of them succeed to turn into a new hair, you still almost have a full head of hair.

so stay patient. soon we will know if tsuji has managed to crack the last puzzle.

Do we have any clue of how we plans to solve the problem?

 

[Kev123]

I like your avatar, threadstarter. Unbreakabale is the grittiest, realest superhero films i've ever seen. Watchman follows a close second.

 

[bags]

you have misunderstood the whole thing a bit.
for the creation of new follicle primordiums there are 2 cell types required, which both have to be multiplied by a factor of 1000 as the final goal. this would mean that you extract 30 donor follicles, dissect them and multiply its cells through 10 passages to create 1000x more cells, which could create 30.000 new follicles. at first 1 cell divides into 2 cells. those 2 cells divide into 4 cells, then 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024.

as it stands today, one of the two cell types is possible to culture (multiply) relatively well, but the other not yet without losing the required gene expression. even after the first passage (when the first cell divides into 2 cells) the gene expression is lost. that's the whole problem we are facing since 2 decades. you have to culture the cells with the right conditions (growth medium with right chemical signaling). in the past, tsuji, jahoda, tissuse (TU berlin) and who not all failed to do that.

however, recently tsuji mentioned they are close and he is very optimistic they will solve that last problem very soon or with the next trial respectively. this remains to be seen.
until that problem isn't solved, you can't even create 2 identical cells from 1.
of course, for a cure we wouldn't need 10 full passages for a total multiplication factor of 1000, but at least 4 passages would be nice. you could then harvest 2000 donor follicles (instead of 30), then multiply them 4 times (4000,8000,16000,32000) and then you have 32000 primordiums to implant. even if only half of them succeed to turn into a new hair, you still almost have a full head of hair.

so stay patient. soon we will know if tsuji has managed to crack the last puzzle.

If he manages to crack that puzzle he will officially become the godfather of immortality.

Apply that ability of gene expression to every cell in the human body and it's a wrap.

Of course there will be varying degrees of difficulty to different biological tissue and challenges in their own right; but this would be an insane breakthrough.

Cellular Regeneration = physical immortality.

Cellular Aging and Depletion = death.

Look at your body inside and out. There is nothing from your hair to your eye balls to you penis to your limbs that could not be regenerated. Organs are a given.

What a time to be alive. And this has nothing to do with actually "editing" Genes. Once that technology comes along into reality we are talking about sci fi stuff. Super human strength and endurance. Prevention of cellular aging and decline even for the new cells that we have the ability to multiply.

Telomeres and Telomerase that don't deteriorate. Wow.

I don't know what sad sad world some people live in but from where I'm sitting the future looks doooope lol.

 

[MrV88]

If he manages to crack that puzzle he will officially become the godfather of immortality.

Apply that ability of gene expression to every cell in the human body and it's a wrap.

Of course there will be varying degrees of difficulty to different biological tissue and challenges in their own right; but this would be an insane breakthrough.

Cellular Regeneration = physical immortality.

Cellular Aging and Depletion = death.

Look at your body inside and out. There is nothing from your hair to your eye balls to you penis to your limbs that could not be regenerated. Organs are a given.

What a time to be alive. And this has nothing to do with actually "editing" Genes. Once that technology comes along into reality we are talking about sci fi stuff. Super human strength and endurance. Prevention of cellular aging and decline even for the new cells that we have the ability to multiply.

Telomeres and Telomerase that don't deteriorate. Wow.

I don't know what sad sad world some people live in but from where I'm sitting the future looks doooope lol.

The future is bald ...very bald

 

[MrV88]

I understand what I read... unless he mis-spoke.

he said that although mesenchymal cells can be multiplied into the thousands in 3 weeks, the company is still in the research phase with regard to the epithelial cells..
...and because they are still only in the research phase for epithelial cells, with "only a small number of human cases" , "an exact value.. ...is yet to be determined."
He also says there is a LIMIT to stem cell proliferation. There is a big difference between a limit and a complete inability to do something.

Note: He is using language that clearly communicates that the only thing they are unsure of is exactly how many times they can expand epithelial cells in culture. If it is true as you say @jo-achim, that they cannot even do this a single time without losing the gene expression, then he is massively misrepresenting his teams findings (although I don't think he is). For him it's not a case of 'if', it's a case of how many times.

He even goes on to give an estimation of how many times they 'might' be able to increase follicles, to satisfy the interviewers persistence. "Collectively from these researches" (meaning both the mesenchymal research and the epithelial research),
the figure is "at least 1000 follicles'. follicles not cells.

And this Toyoshima guy is not a marketing clown unaware of the 2 decade struggle to achieve this feat, he's conducted a lot of the very research leading up to this point over the last 20 years.

Additionally if you read what he says about epithelial cell culturing in the opening questions, he uses such language as follows:

"...currently in the middle of research and development for this. Based on our recent research results, we finally have some prospects and expect this issue to be resolved in the near future."
So, after 20 years, they're finally getting somewhere. They seen something NEW in the research that's empowering the publishing of books, signing of manufacturing alliances and announcement of market release dates.

the interviewer pushes and says that's a big deal isn't it, (reguarding making ground with epithelial cell expansion)..?
and he says yeah, "finally coming out of the basic research phase toward the clinical application phase."

The interviewer hammers on, pushing him AGAIN on epithelial cells, and he responds:
"...we consider the development of the technology to culture epithelial stem cells as the most significant issue we face. In order to regenerate a clinically effective number of follicles, a sufficient number of cells need to be secured while satisfying the safety and functional requirements."

Now, I don't know how many times he needs to say it but it is clear as far as he is concerned that the challenge is not to achieve successful proliferation once with epithelial cells,
but to do it enough times to meet functional requirements. those functional requirements are published all over their infographics: to take a single punch biopsy and generate enough cells to cover an entire scalp. that's what they said they'd do.

My point in this thread, from the beginning, was to highlight the fact that a functional cure already exists if we stretch the procedure to harvest thousands more cells, and repeat the procedure multiple times.

Do you honestly think Tsuji and Toyoshimo would spend 20 years hitting a brick wall with epithelial cells, and then randomly announce one day that they will be releasing a 100% effective hair loss solution "superior to a hair transplant", whilst they still can't even proliferate epithelial cells a singe time???

Really man? ...come onnnn. (and before you start raping your keyboard with your rebuttal, read over my posts in this thread, and then read exactly what toyoshima says again in response to epithelial cell questions.
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/news/new-research/hair-primordiums-tsuji-organ-interview-sept2016/

Let's say they will be capable of "generating" thousand of follicles out of just a small number of hairs/grafts/follicles (let's assume 1-50)

This would be great, because there wouldn't be any FUE withe dots and no scars at all etc.

Some here suggest that it would be great when they even could multiple them just by 2-4 times and therefore Tsuji and co. would need 2-4000 grafts from a FUE/FUT to multiply it to get enough hairs.

What I want to know is: Is it possible to reimplant 2-4000 hairs back in the donor from the mutiplied hairs? Would there be still white dots or scars?
Would they publish this method even if they just could mutiply by 2-10 times? (İt would still be great )

 

[MrV88]

My point exactly, just because they don't have a perfect "one punch biopsy = one full lions mane gains" procedure... It could still be awesome if they were prepared to do it FUE style 3 times to give you the lions mane.
They discuss fixing scars with primordiums tentatively too, suggesting they might be able to regenerate the subcutaneous fatty tissue, but they just don't know yet, lets get this done first.

İf they could fix the "damaged" skin from the donor area I would even be glad if they just can mutiply it by 2. Take 4000 and give me 8k back. I wouldn't care if have to do this procedure 4 or 5 times and I don't think that anybody else would care if there just would be an opportunity of getting more hairs back than we have to give away for a FUE.
Where did you get the point for tissue repairing? I remember that they said something about scar tissues and getting hairs back at these areas would be their next step.