For Stephen Foote, from a Doctor

[Felk]

Wookiewannabe/wookie/wookster... I'm assuming it's the same poster. In any case your posts seem to only ever be snippets of quotes, frequently quite irrelevant, with accompanying emoticons.

For example...

Finally, no SW analysis is complete without some mention of amusing sidekick Chewbacca. Though it is normal for Wookies to have large amounts of flowing locks, humans prefer to have such bountiful tresses only on their scalps. The medical name for Chewie's look is hypertrichosis, excess hair over the face and body. Hirsutism refers to women with extra hair in a "male" pattern: beard, chest, back. For those with normal amounts of hair in places that they prefer not to have it (shoulders and backs for men, underarms, face and legs for women) several forms of hair removal are available. Shaving, waxing, and electrolysis are old standbys. Laser hair removal has the potential benefits of less discomfort and the possibility of permanent hair reduction. Many people don't mind their hair. Like Chewbacca, we gladly say: "May the Fur Be with You."

http://www.skinema.com/SpotStarWars1.html

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

 

[docj077]

Gene therapy?

ensativo:

Our vectors aren't good or safe enough...yet. Besides, the vector would likely have to be internalized, because I highly doubt that they could make a decent viral vector to penetrate the skin.

 

[wookster]

Here is an interesting discussion that has alot of good information even though it turned into the classic war between Foote and Shelton:

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full

:argue:

 

[michael barry]

Wook,

after reading that and knowing that you have read it, Im suprised youve never given prox-n a shot. Proctor is the only doctor who has looked at all of these things so thouroughly and produced a non-anti-androgenic topical that attempts to counteract all these events as best as possible.


There will be no dietary supplement or superfood that will counteract male pattern baldness....................genes will have to be counteracted at the scalp level.

 

[wookster]

Wook,

after reading that and knowing that you have read it, Im suprised youve never given prox-n a shot. Proctor is the only doctor who has looked at all of these things so thouroughly and produced a non-anti-androgenic topical that attempts to counteract all these events as best as possible.


There will be no dietary supplement or superfood that will counteract male pattern baldness....................genes will have to be counteracted at the scalp level.

Here is an interesting quote:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions ... hp?t=26982

.........even the propylene glycol and alchohol carriers alone seem to see more hair growth over placebo.

What is it about propylene glycol & alcohol that gives more hair growth over placebo... diuretic effects?

 

[michael barry]

................perhaps some anti-sceptic properties of the two might be useful. To be honest, ask Bryan about that. I knew of the -slightly-beneficial effect of alcohol and PPG because Bryan has mentioned it.

 

[wookster]

................perhaps some anti-sceptic properties of the two might be useful. To be honest, ask Bryan about that. I knew of the -slightly-beneficial effect of alcohol and PPG because Bryan has mentioned it.

The consensus seems to be, that minoxidil mostly works by openeing potassium channels.

How do the opening and closing of potassium channels correlate with the fluid balance and hydrostatic pressures of the follicular and cellular infrastructure?


I tried to post a quote with a link :refilao: but got this message:


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[Bryan]

The consensus seems to be, that minoxidil mostly works by openeing potassium channels.

How do the opening and closing of potassium channels correlate with the fluid balance and hydrostatic pressures of the follicular and cellular infrastructure?

Everybody knows that minoxidil causes edema. What do you think of Stephen Foote's excuse that minoxidil causes a shift of fluid AWAY from hair follicles?

Can you say "ad hoc"? I knew you could!

 

[wookster]

Does the same hold for human scalp tissue? A prediction of Foote's theory?

http://www.hairfacts.com/medpubs/hairgen/paus.html

Title: Telogen skin contains an inhibitor of hair growth.

Authors: Paus R, Stenn KS, Link RE

Journal: Br J Dermatol 1990 Jun;122(6):777-84

PMID: 2369558, UI: 90315303

Affiliated institution: Department of Dermatology, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, CT 06510.

Cited in: Lin

We have investigated whether C57B1-6 mouse skin with all its follicles in the telogen stage of the hair cycle contains a hair-growth inhibitory activity, as opposed to skin with anagen follicles. Crude aqueous extracts of whole telogen mouse skin (Telogen Effluvium), anagen skin (AE) or vehicle alone (V) were injected intraperitoneally into mice in which anagen had previously been induced by plucking of telogen hair follicles. Injection of Telogen Effluvium, but not AE or V, significantly retarded the development of anagen follicles, as measured by macroscopic and quantitative microscopic hair growth parameters (skin pigmentation and thickness, appearance of trichohyaline granules) and the incorporation of tritiated thymidine into mouse skin from animals previously treated with either Telogen Effluvium or V (skin organ culture). This inhibitory activity seemed to be localized to the epidermis and was also present in rat epidermis. We suggest that this apparently non-species-specific inhibitor present in telogen skin may play a role in regulating the hair cycle in rodents.

 

[michael barry]

Injections of a watery extract of telogen mouse skin retarded the growth of mouse skin in which anagen had been artificially induced by plucking of the telogen hair follicles. So therefore "some species specific inhibitor in telogen skin may play a role in regulating the hair cycle" in rodents.


There is no mention of tissue fluid pressure in or around these follicles. How could shooting up the mouse skin with a watery-extract of telogen skin as opposed to shooting up mouse skin with an extract of anagen skin or the vehicle alone induce an increase in fluid pressure around the follicles?


Can you explain on how you see Foote's theory in this as it relates to a pressure increase or edema in the mouse skin? Has lymphedema been a observation in balding mice?





By the way Wookie, this might be of interest to you:

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 230063.php



Activity of herbal extracts on the control of sebum secretion.Accession number;04A0230063
Title;Activity of herbal extracts on the control of sebum secretion.
Author;UCHIUMI YOICHIRO(Maruzen Pharm. Co., Ltd., JPN) YAMAMOTO SUSUMU(Maruzen Pharm. Co., Ltd., JPN) MIZUTANI KENJI(Maruzen Pharm. Co., Ltd., JPN)
Journal Title;Fragr J

Journal Code:G0987B

ISSN:0288-9803

VOL.32;NO.3;PAGE.53-57(2004)
Figure&Table&Reference;TBL.4, REF.13
Pub. Country;Japan
Language;Japanese
Abstract;Potential activity of herbal extracts on sebum secretion was studied. Among the herbal extracts tested, polyol-soluble licorice extract P-U (product name) derived from Glycyrrhiza inflata showed the most potent testosterone 5 .ALPHA.-reductase inhibition, androgen receptor binding inhibition and antimicrobial activities, which are closely related to sebum secretion. In addition to the findings on polyol-soluble licorice extract P-U, clove extract and peppermint extract showed testosterone 5 .ALPHA.-reductase inhibition, arnica extract and rose fruit extract showed androgen receptor binding inhibition, alpinia speciosa root extract and scutellaria root extract showed estrogen receptor agonists, and sophora root extract showed antimicrobial activity. (author abst.)



This is interesting because its HUMAN sebum secretions and HUMAN alpha five reductase being inhibited, as well as HUMAN androgen receptors being blocked. Licorice, Peppermint, clove, rose hips, and sunflower oils all might be beneficial......................

 

[wookster]

Can you explain on how you see Foote's theory in this as it relates to a pressure increase or edema in the mouse skin? Has lymphedema been a observation in balding mice?

Mr. Foote never goes into rigorous detail in his description of how contact inhibition works in the balding process. Contact inhibition appears to be an axiom of his theory, not an assumption. Contact inhibition is explained as the necessary requirement for all cells in order to constrain runaway growth. So in that regard, Foote's theory does not require edema per se, just the mechanism of contact inhibition, which is an automatic given in normal biological functioning. Androgens could still have a more direct effect and still work in Foote's theory :wink:

Androgens are positively correlated with male pattern baldness but what if the real cause of pattern baldness is the downstream effects of androgens, producing toxins, which then act on the hair follicles in such a way as to continually reduce the anagen phase of growth, and at the same time, the telogen phase remains at a constant; the result would be the observed follicular miniaturization which is a most dreaded predestination.

It seems that if the toxins are removed from the baldness equation then normal hair cycling can resume...

 

[michael barry]

So in that regard, Foote's theory does not require edema per se, just the mechanism of contact inhibition, which is an automatic given in normal biological functioning.uote]

Wook,
Stephen got his edema idea from lymphedema. If you look that up, you'll find that edema usually happens on fat women's legs and sometimes arms. Hair on the legs doesnt get lost until the tissue is almost visibly soggy and obviously holding water. It doesn't really look like regular baldness, and why the excessive collagen deposition in ordinary baldness only around the follicles, blocking regrowth of hair..................when plain old toxic damage seems to do the trick in leg edema and the obviously watery skin on the women?

but what if the real cause of pattern baldness is the downstream effects of androgens, producing toxins, which then act on the hair follicles in such a way as to continually reduce the anagen phase of growth, and at the same time, the telogen phase remains at a constant; the result would be the observed follicular miniaturization which is a most dreaded predestination

Hair Transplants Wook, period. Contact inhibition is the genesis, exodus, and leviticus of Foote's argument. If "toxins" were killing the head hairs, then hair transplants from the seventies would not still be growing (and growing well) on men's heads out there today. Also Wook, Stephen has said in the past the the stagnant protiens in scalp tissue from the supposed edema is why balding men's hair ages so badly (greys, gets brittle, weaker growing, etc.). Why then do transplants age at the same rate as the donor-area hair in the back. If you'd seen alot of transplants in person over the years as I have, you'd know this. The transpanted hair is not protected from ageing over other head hair and will grey and grow aged just as the donor area hair does.

It seems that if the toxins are removed from the baldness equation then normal hair cycling can resume...

Are you so sure that a boat load of toxins exists in all men's balding scalps? Apes dont exhibit any inflammation at all and I defy you find an article that discusses primate baldness that mentions any inflammation as being the cause and not androgens. And...........in a word Wook, Transplants again. Toxins sure as hell dont bother the transplanted hair at all.




One more thing, I used to follow the body hair transplants with great interest. Wook, some of your body hair that appears to be growing on your body is actually in the telogen phase. Its resting, BUT BODY HAIR CYCLES ARE SO SHORT AND REGROWTH SO SLOW that the rest phase is long enough and the next regrowth phase is long enough that its a while before new hairs "push" out the old ones (or the old ones gently fall away of their own accord) that quite a bit of your body hair that is on you is not actively growing. Docs will tell you that the regrowth rate of the resting body hair when transplanted isn't quite as good as the anagen hairs, but it does grow. A tissue scaffold would be formed around the "resting" smaller dermal papilla. It should not be able to re-enlage and dive down deep in the dermis when moved....................but it does. Ive kinda lost interest in arguing Stephen's theory however...............................but I can see you still believe it to be at least partially true (even though I see no way for it to be partially true myself).

 

[Bryan]

Re:

Mr. Foote never goes into rigorous detail in his description of how contact inhibition works in the balding process.

Mainly because nobody KNOWS the exact biochemical steps in contact inhibition. Stephen Foote, though, does delight in pointing out one particular known detail, which is that TGFb-1 (or is it TGFb-2?) is known to play a role in that, just like it does in the negative response to androgens by scalp hair follicles. He thinks that constitutes a verisimilude of truth for his wacky theory!

Contact inhibition appears to be an axiom of his theory, not an assumption.

You would be well-advised not to assume that there are profound differences between the words axiom and assumption.

Contact inhibition is explained as the necessary requirement for all cells in order to constrain runaway growth. So in that regard, Foote's theory does not require edema per se, just the mechanism of contact inhibition, which is an automatic given in normal biological functioning.

But Stephen Foote claims that edema (and the resulting contact inhibition it produces) IS responsible for balding.

Androgens could still have a more direct effect and still work in Foote's theory :wink:

Yes, but he DENIES the direct effect of androgens.

Androgens are positively correlated with male pattern baldness but what if the real cause of pattern baldness is the downstream effects of androgens, producing toxins, which then act on the hair follicles in such a way as to continually reduce the anagen phase of growth, and at the same time, the telogen phase remains at a constant; the result would be the observed follicular miniaturization which is a most dreaded predestination.

"What if", indeed! That's exactly what the accepted theory of balding says! :agree:

It seems that if the toxins are removed from the baldness equation then normal hair cycling can resume...

Indeed...

 

[Bryan]

but what if the real cause of pattern baldness is the downstream effects of androgens, producing toxins, which then act on the hair follicles in such a way as to continually reduce the anagen phase of growth, and at the same time, the telogen phase remains at a constant; the result would be the observed follicular miniaturization which is a most dreaded predestination

Hair Transplants Wook, period. Contact inhibition is the genesis, exodus, and leviticus of Foote's argument. If "toxins" were killing the head hairs, then hair transplants from the seventies would not still be growing (and growing well) on men's heads out there today.

Michael, when I first read what Wookster said above, I _assumed_ he was referring to the growth-suppressive effects of substances like TGFb-2 which are formed and released to the rest of the hair follicle by the dermal papillae, in response to androgens. That would be directly in line with the standard theory of balding. But now after reading your post above, I'm not so sure WHAT the hell he meant! Wookster isn't always a model of precision and clarity! :dunno: