Folligen vs. Tricomin
- Thread starter Snarfleflous
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michael barry
Senior Member
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Maybe Pickart will add the alanine/histyl/lysine peptide back into folligen when the patent comes off of it in his new product............and/or
add an anti-androgen to the mix.
Bryan, Im sure, as well as me, is astonished more research entities have not tested possible topical anti-androgens on human body hair to find which might have efficacy.
Its amazing.
They ought to try out every possible substance (hops, beta sis, saw palmetto oil, licorice, fenugunk seeds, topical curcumoids, topical green tea catcehins, topical caffeine, topical sterols, topical fatty acids, thyme, etc.) and see if anyone really is impressive at reducing body hair on test subject arms.
Whats PATHETIC about this is that someone like Pickart probably has enough male employees to do this with over a six month period.
This knida' thing should have been done long ago (by us mainly) instead of waiting for the good folks over at pubmed to randomly test things for various skin conditions and just "happen" upon something that "might possibly be used for hirsutism in females" etc.
All prox-n would need would be a good topical anti-androgen to add to it that had 24 hour lasting effects topically to be about as good a hair treatment as one could reasonably ask for.
add an anti-androgen to the mix.
Bryan, Im sure, as well as me, is astonished more research entities have not tested possible topical anti-androgens on human body hair to find which might have efficacy.
Its amazing.
They ought to try out every possible substance (hops, beta sis, saw palmetto oil, licorice, fenugunk seeds, topical curcumoids, topical green tea catcehins, topical caffeine, topical sterols, topical fatty acids, thyme, etc.) and see if anyone really is impressive at reducing body hair on test subject arms.
Whats PATHETIC about this is that someone like Pickart probably has enough male employees to do this with over a six month period.
This knida' thing should have been done long ago (by us mainly) instead of waiting for the good folks over at pubmed to randomly test things for various skin conditions and just "happen" upon something that "might possibly be used for hirsutism in females" etc.
All prox-n would need would be a good topical anti-androgen to add to it that had 24 hour lasting effects topically to be about as good a hair treatment as one could reasonably ask for.
H2O
Established Member
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- 2
michael barry said:
In my mind, if the patent is in fact expired, all Pickart needs do is make an alanine-histyl-lysine formula that is full strength...equal to the phase II trials performed. He would trump the market.
Folligen, after trying Tricomin as well, is just inferior on many levels IMO.
1) Cosmetically : the Folligen spray and the paste/cream stain your head a green color...not cosmetically practical for routine use. Tricomin does not leave a noticeable discoloration on the scalp.
2) Smell : I find Folligen spray a bit pungent...kind of funky smelling...like rotten soy
. Seriously...it might just be from the high concentration of copper but I think it could certainly be improved a bit. Tricomin actually smells good to me. More or less like a copper penny but it just doesn't have that twangy funk to it.3) Proven : There is at least a controlled FDA study showing the benefit of the Tricomin formulation whilst the Folligen formulation of "random" peptide bonds still has not been tested under the same scrutiny...just anecdotal testimonials.
The bottom line for me is that I can use Tricomin every day...twice a day...for reasons 1 & 2 listed above. It actually provides cosmetic improvement in my hair's appearance. Just like Rogaine Foam...if you improve application ease and "esthetic issues" of the treatment you'll increase efficacy based on product regimen compliance.
I have no axe to grind either way....it's just clear to me that if the patent has indeed expired all someone has to do is provide a full strength formula of Tricomin and even knock off 20 buck or so from the price seeing that they don't have to pay off a costly FDA phase II trial or pay for licensing and they'll have a clear winner...
I know...way too much to hope for... :hairy:
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 14
Im inlcined to agree with you H20.
I used to be excited about American Crew copper peptides because they used the tricomin tri-amino complex. Now the bottles say copper gluconate on them. I was excited about AC-peptides because green tea extract, thyme, and saw palmetto extract were added and they are all somewhat anti-androgenic along with the anthocyandins (new pubmed on that if you search it) in rosemary.
Now that American Crew is claiming to use copper gluconate (although I privately wished they were still putting the old peptides in there, and just dont want to pay graftcyte for the use of the trademarked name), I guess tricomin would be the way to go in all honesty.
The thing that bothered me about folligen, is that IF it worked well......................why in the hell wouldn't Pickart tested it on a few men and put their photos on his website? Theoretically speaking several peptides, which all have SOD activity, would be as good as adding specific SOD's. He puts tocopherol and retinyl palmitate and aloe vera in folligen which is pleasing. There is a polysorbate in there also.
I will say this for folligen spray however, I sprayed it on my face, and Ive noticed my face looks a little fresher (read younger). I imagine his skin products are pretty good. I dont know about folligen. Im putting some on my index finger and want to see if the hair growth on that finger gets better than the other finger over the next several months. I'll post if something noteworthy occurs.
Ive been using prox-n about once a day for the most part as my peptide. Havent regained any hairline ground, but the hair I have looks heatlthy and thick. Darker definetly.
Im like you H20 on the tri-amino complex. Its proven in a study. If the patent is off it, I hope Pickart puts alot of it in folligen and only includes the top one or two other peptides in mouse models with it. I also wished he'd add some anti-androgen to it (green tea catechins, curcumoids, hops, thyme.......SOMETHING he has tested and had success with anyway).
Although on the last point I must admit. ..................I have a feeling if a guy takes finasteride and uses nizoral perhaps 3 days a week..............anti-androgenically he should be doing pretty darn good.
I used to be excited about American Crew copper peptides because they used the tricomin tri-amino complex. Now the bottles say copper gluconate on them. I was excited about AC-peptides because green tea extract, thyme, and saw palmetto extract were added and they are all somewhat anti-androgenic along with the anthocyandins (new pubmed on that if you search it) in rosemary.
Now that American Crew is claiming to use copper gluconate (although I privately wished they were still putting the old peptides in there, and just dont want to pay graftcyte for the use of the trademarked name), I guess tricomin would be the way to go in all honesty.
The thing that bothered me about folligen, is that IF it worked well......................why in the hell wouldn't Pickart tested it on a few men and put their photos on his website? Theoretically speaking several peptides, which all have SOD activity, would be as good as adding specific SOD's. He puts tocopherol and retinyl palmitate and aloe vera in folligen which is pleasing. There is a polysorbate in there also.
I will say this for folligen spray however, I sprayed it on my face, and Ive noticed my face looks a little fresher (read younger). I imagine his skin products are pretty good. I dont know about folligen. Im putting some on my index finger and want to see if the hair growth on that finger gets better than the other finger over the next several months. I'll post if something noteworthy occurs.
Ive been using prox-n about once a day for the most part as my peptide. Havent regained any hairline ground, but the hair I have looks heatlthy and thick. Darker definetly.
Im like you H20 on the tri-amino complex. Its proven in a study. If the patent is off it, I hope Pickart puts alot of it in folligen and only includes the top one or two other peptides in mouse models with it. I also wished he'd add some anti-androgen to it (green tea catechins, curcumoids, hops, thyme.......SOMETHING he has tested and had success with anyway).
Although on the last point I must admit. ..................I have a feeling if a guy takes finasteride and uses nizoral perhaps 3 days a week..............anti-androgenically he should be doing pretty darn good.
Cassin
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 78
H2O said:michael barry said:
In my mind, if the patent is in fact expired, all Pickart needs do is make an alanine-histyl-lysine formula that is full strength...equal to the phase II trials performed. He would trump the market.
Folligen, after trying Tricomin as well, is just inferior on many levels IMO.
1) Cosmetically : the Folligen spray and the paste/cream stain your head a green color...not cosmetically practical for routine use. Tricomin does not leave a noticeable discoloration on the scalp.
2) Smell : I find Folligen spray a bit pungent...kind of funky smelling...like rotten soy
3) Proven : There is at least a controlled FDA study showing the benefit of the Tricomin formulation whilst the Folligen formulation of "random" peptide bonds still has not been tested under the same scrutiny...just anecdotal testimonials.
The bottom line for me is that I can use Tricomin every day...twice a day...for reasons 1 & 2 listed above. It actually provides cosmetic improvement in my hair's appearance. Just like Rogaine Foam...if you improve application ease and "esthetic issues" of the treatment you'll increase efficacy based on product regimen compliance.
I have no axe to grind either way....it's just clear to me that if the patent has indeed expired all someone has to do is provide a full strength formula of Tricomin and even knock off 20 buck or so from the price seeing that they don't have to pay off a costly FDA phase II trial or pay for licensing and they'll have a clear winner...
I know...way too much to hope for... :hairy:
Good post!
H2O made a great post. Now I will post a rebuttal in favor of Folligen.
1) Folligen is less expensive.
2) Folligen's recommended use is every OTHER day as opposed to Tricomin's TWICE a day.
3) Tricomin's commercially available formula does NOT contain the same concentration as the one used in FDA trials.
4) Because of its infrequent need for application, Folligen is easier to fit into regimens that include other topicals.
5) And last but not least, both of these products likely do d!ck, but give us all piece of mind that we are going that extra mile to save our hair.
That last one was a joke...sort of.
1) Folligen is less expensive.
2) Folligen's recommended use is every OTHER day as opposed to Tricomin's TWICE a day.
3) Tricomin's commercially available formula does NOT contain the same concentration as the one used in FDA trials.
4) Because of its infrequent need for application, Folligen is easier to fit into regimens that include other topicals.
5) And last but not least, both of these products likely do d!ck, but give us all piece of mind that we are going that extra mile to save our hair.
That last one was a joke...sort of.
H2O
Established Member
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- 2
Not trying to pick a fight here JWM...and you do make solid points...but couldn't resist one more round for fun :wink:
No argument there and if you're on a budget I encourage you to go for the "stinky green machine"
This is also true...so the choice is smelling like rotten tripe and staining your head green every other day...or using a product that leaves your hair and scalp both smelling and looking good twice a day...hummm...I'll have to think about that and get back to you...
This is also true...I have heard estimates in the 50% strength range. So...again a choice....a product that contains a proven formula at 50% strength or a product that contains 100% unproven formula...another perplexing choice....
True to an extent...but I have a routine and it involves the application of the foam and Tricomin 2x per day. I would actually get more confused if I had to remember when I used it last and whether this is an "on" day or an "off" day. So to me I find the 2x a day application no more difficult to fit in my regimen as a product recommending EOD usage. That is just my personal taste however...
This we both jokingly agree on...but I cannot deny Tricomin does make my scalp feel better and relieves itching as well as leaving my hair looking thicker and better conditioned. So beyond just a noticable cosmetic improvement, there is at least a very real improvement in my scalp health. I have heard numerous reports of Folligen actually causing burning and itching (no doubt due to its much greater concentration of copper peptides) rather than soothing the scalp. I have heard no similar complaints involving Tricomin.
So...whether the use of Tricomin further translates to increases in the hair count and diameter as was observed in the study I can't be sure...but to me there are enough known and verifiable advantages based on my own personal experience with the product to more than justify my continued use.
Money is less of an issue with me so I can see the point of going with Folligen if you are on a budget...but frankly if I was on a tight budget...based on my original criticisms of Folligen I would likely not bother using CPs at all...
Ok...enough fun . You have made some good points JWM...I just felt like keeping the volley going...all meant in good fun though...both products are, no doubt, decent products and each have their own unique advantages.
JWM said:
No argument there and if you're on a budget I encourage you to go for the "stinky green machine"
JWM said:
This is also true...so the choice is smelling like rotten tripe and staining your head green every other day...or using a product that leaves your hair and scalp both smelling and looking good twice a day...hummm...I'll have to think about that and get back to you...
JWM said:
This is also true...I have heard estimates in the 50% strength range. So...again a choice....a product that contains a proven formula at 50% strength or a product that contains 100% unproven formula...another perplexing choice....
JWM said:
True to an extent...but I have a routine and it involves the application of the foam and Tricomin 2x per day. I would actually get more confused if I had to remember when I used it last and whether this is an "on" day or an "off" day. So to me I find the 2x a day application no more difficult to fit in my regimen as a product recommending EOD usage. That is just my personal taste however...
JWM said:
This we both jokingly agree on...but I cannot deny Tricomin does make my scalp feel better and relieves itching as well as leaving my hair looking thicker and better conditioned. So beyond just a noticable cosmetic improvement, there is at least a very real improvement in my scalp health. I have heard numerous reports of Folligen actually causing burning and itching (no doubt due to its much greater concentration of copper peptides) rather than soothing the scalp. I have heard no similar complaints involving Tricomin.
So...whether the use of Tricomin further translates to increases in the hair count and diameter as was observed in the study I can't be sure...but to me there are enough known and verifiable advantages based on my own personal experience with the product to more than justify my continued use.
Money is less of an issue with me so I can see the point of going with Folligen if you are on a budget...but frankly if I was on a tight budget...based on my original criticisms of Folligen I would likely not bother using CPs at all...
Ok...enough fun
. You have made some good points JWM...I just felt like keeping the volley going...all meant in good fun though...both products are, no doubt, decent products and each have their own unique advantages.
I just received a new bottle of Folligen. It is a deep blue color and the smell is hardly noticeable and it doesn't stain my skin nearly as bad. With the last bottle, the liquid was a puke green and the smell was aptly described by an earlier poster as "rotten soy." I don't know if this was the slow result of oxidation or contamination over several months or if this batch is different than the first....
Anyhow, in my opinion, the real problem differentiating between the two is that there infuriatingly little data either way. I enjoyed smelling like an herbal garden when I used AC and I rather enjoy the slight burning sensation of Folligen.
Ultimately, we should keep plugging away using what suits us while waiting for something better to come through the pipeline. Hopefully, it's right around the corner.
Anyhow, in my opinion, the real problem differentiating between the two is that there infuriatingly little data either way. I enjoyed smelling like an herbal garden when I used AC and I rather enjoy the slight burning sensation of Folligen.
Ultimately, we should keep plugging away using what suits us while waiting for something better to come through the pipeline. Hopefully, it's right around the corner.
H2O
Established Member
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Bryan said:H2O said:
A 50% strength??? That's probably not even physically possible!
I'm pretty sure they used a 2.5% concentration.
Bryan
I think you misunderstood my statement Bryan...I've heard comments (I thought even by you) that the Tricomin formulation was "diluted" to approximately 1/2 the concentration of CP's used in the FDA trials....is this not true? Are you saying the formulation is actually only 2.5% of the original "full" concentration used in the FDA trials...? or am I misinterpreting what you are saying...? I'd like to know the answer to this if you have any idea...thanks
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 14
Just an opinion here......................prox-n is probably better than either one.
Michael Barry
Prox-N is likely a great treatment, but if we are going on past arguments from this thread than IT TOO is an untested product.
H2O
Some more good points that I will have to admit defeat on. I guess it just comes down to a personal preference yeah? I must admit that Tricomin is MUCH easier to apply :lol:
Plus, with the sale HairLossTalk.com is having on it maybe we could all stock up and save some cash :wink:
Prox-N is likely a great treatment, but if we are going on past arguments from this thread than IT TOO is an untested product.
H2O
Some more good points that I will have to admit defeat on. I guess it just comes down to a personal preference yeah? I must admit that Tricomin is MUCH easier to apply :lol:
Plus, with the sale HairLossTalk.com is having on it maybe we could all stock up and save some cash :wink:
- Reaction score
- 43
H2O said:I think you misunderstood my statement Bryan...I've heard comments (I thought even by you) that the Tricomin formulation was "diluted" to approximately 1/2 the concentration of CP's used in the FDA trials....is this not true? Are you saying the formulation is actually only 2.5% of the original "full" concentration used in the FDA trials...? or am I misinterpreting what you are saying...? I'd like to know the answer to this if you have any idea...thanks
You should always be very careful when talking about "concentrations" and "strengths", because people will assume that you're talking about ABSOLUTE concentrations and strengths! :wink:
No, I have no idea what the concentration of the copper-peptide is in Tricomin, although we do know that it's less than what was tested in their trial. On the other hand, they say that they did a lot of work on the vehicle that's used in the commercial version, and so the overall effectiveness is nearly the same as what was used in the trial (or so they claim).
Bryan
H2O
Established Member
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michael barry said:
I would have a strong tendency to agree with you...even if unproven under controlled trial.
Michael...I actually had a question for you. Earlier in the thread you stated :
"... I have a feeling if a guy takes finasteride and uses nizoral perhaps 3 days a week..............anti-androgenically he should be doing pretty darn good...."
I was curious...if you had to hazard a guess, how long do you think the ketoconazole from Nizoral actually stays effective on ones scalp after leaving it on, say, 5 minutes. Do you have any data or educated guesses how long it might remain active ? I've always wondered this...
JWM said:
Yep...I plan on taking advantage of the offer as well...really is a great deal considering the regular price. You did bring up some good points...especially the cost. Tricomin is really expensive for what we know to be the manufacturing costs but, again, they did give us a gift of a phase II trial...something we always beg for from product manufacturers...Proof. So now this is the price we pay...I think that's also why I accept it.
Cassin said:
And that is also my point. I was just placing tongue firmly in cheek with that "stinky green machine" comment. Folligen is cheaper but I still consider Tricomin a value based on the reason mentioned above....I got what I wanted so now I need to shut up and pay...
Bryan said:
Very true...I read back and realized my wording was easy to misinterpret...point taken
Bryan said:
Interesting....I didn't know they claimed a more effective vehicle to justify the lesser concentration. Thanks for the info...it'd certainly be nice if that were, in fact, true. At least they did a good job on the formulation from a conditioning standpoint...
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
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H2O,
Im cutting and pasting from the nizoral.com website:
"
* Following a single application of ketoconazole shampoo, ketoconazole persists at therapeutic concentrations for 7 days in the epidermal layers. In addition, substantial pityrosporal inhibitory doses of ketoconazole were detected on the hair for several days after use of the shampoo, the mean level at 72 h was 11.6 µ mg.
Reference: Pierard GE, Arrese JE, Pierard-Franchimont C, et al: Prolonged effects of antidandruff shampoos-time to recurrence of Malassezia ovalis colonization of skin. International Journal of Cosmetic Science. 1997;19:111-117. "
Man I dont know about 70 hours or some such, but there are two studies that have taken place on it. Im testing it myself on one wrist RIGHT NOW. In about three months, I'll be able to tell you if washing a wrist with nizoral three days a week really reduced body hair there (I know, Im a nosy guy).
You can buy two percent nizoral at http://nizoralshampoo.com/ .
DS labratories has a new (expensive shampoo) that is in a 200 ml bottle (twice the size of a nizoral bottle for 32 bucks) that has 2 percent ketoconazale, a copper peptide, spin traps, apple polyhphenol, cysteine, MSM, taurine, and another goody or two in it. They want ya' to use it five days a week.
There are ketoconozale creams one can buy if they are afraid of too much shampoo usage.
H20, Im testing a "buncha" stuff on my body hair right now (told ya' I was nosy). Im running Revivogen on a forearm, follingen peptides on one finger, green tea mixed with beer on another finger (my fingers have hair on them, Im a hairy man), prox-n on the back of one hand.
Ive thought about adding lavendar oil and tea tree oil topically "somewhere" to see if they reduce body hair a great deal. Pine oil did that and revivogen did reduce hair when I tested them before, but I didnt photograph it. I intend to photograph anything that is particularily impressive this time. It would be nice to find a topical anti-androgen that was really effective for about a 24 hour period that didn't make your hair look like an oil slick or have an unpleasant odor.
Something I tried that DID NOT work or worked very little (anti-androgenically) was crinagen.
I wish HairLossTalk.com paid a scientist to test a ton of topicals on androgenic mice (or PAID VOLUNTEERS) for six months to see how well various topicals anti-androgenically inhibited body hair growth and how some topicals STIMULATED body hair growth. We could parse this mother down pretty quick if we could just get some damn good testing.
Im cutting and pasting from the nizoral.com website:
"
* Following a single application of ketoconazole shampoo, ketoconazole persists at therapeutic concentrations for 7 days in the epidermal layers. In addition, substantial pityrosporal inhibitory doses of ketoconazole were detected on the hair for several days after use of the shampoo, the mean level at 72 h was 11.6 µ mg.
Reference: Pierard GE, Arrese JE, Pierard-Franchimont C, et al: Prolonged effects of antidandruff shampoos-time to recurrence of Malassezia ovalis colonization of skin. International Journal of Cosmetic Science. 1997;19:111-117. "
Man I dont know about 70 hours or some such, but there are two studies that have taken place on it. Im testing it myself on one wrist RIGHT NOW. In about three months, I'll be able to tell you if washing a wrist with nizoral three days a week really reduced body hair there (I know, Im a nosy guy).
You can buy two percent nizoral at http://nizoralshampoo.com/ .
DS labratories has a new (expensive shampoo) that is in a 200 ml bottle (twice the size of a nizoral bottle for 32 bucks) that has 2 percent ketoconazale, a copper peptide, spin traps, apple polyhphenol, cysteine, MSM, taurine, and another goody or two in it. They want ya' to use it five days a week.
There are ketoconozale creams one can buy if they are afraid of too much shampoo usage.
H20, Im testing a "buncha" stuff on my body hair right now (told ya' I was nosy). Im running Revivogen on a forearm, follingen peptides on one finger, green tea mixed with beer on another finger (my fingers have hair on them, Im a hairy man), prox-n on the back of one hand.
Ive thought about adding lavendar oil and tea tree oil topically "somewhere" to see if they reduce body hair a great deal. Pine oil did that and revivogen did reduce hair when I tested them before, but I didnt photograph it. I intend to photograph anything that is particularily impressive this time. It would be nice to find a topical anti-androgen that was really effective for about a 24 hour period that didn't make your hair look like an oil slick or have an unpleasant odor.
Something I tried that DID NOT work or worked very little (anti-androgenically) was crinagen.
I wish HairLossTalk.com paid a scientist to test a ton of topicals on androgenic mice (or PAID VOLUNTEERS) for six months to see how well various topicals anti-androgenically inhibited body hair growth and how some topicals STIMULATED body hair growth. We could parse this mother down pretty quick if we could just get some damn good testing.