Finasteride

[cristi2011]

I think this is trolling.
Give us a break!
There are MILLIONS of people out there in the world who take finasteride and have no problems.
I don't totally exclude the possibility of those really bad sides you say, but in my opinion one has a higher probability to be hit by a car tommorow than to experience that "post-finasteride" stuff.
They are very RARE, IF they exist( nothing was observed in clinical studies!!!).
You cannot believe a minority of a few people who say they had big problems, when other MILLIONS didn't have any issue...
And give us a break with DHT and the male brain... Do you really think male neurons functions completely different from female neurons??

 

[Mens Rea]

I think this is trolling.
Give us a break!
There are MILLIONS of people out there in the world who take finasteride and have no problems.

Anmd there are thousands of men complaining of persistent problems long after cessation. Me included. And Enden. And Finfighter. And monty. Infact there's about 10 or 15 on this forum alone.


[quote:b0aoop53]
I don't totally exclude the possibility of those really bad sides you say, but in my opinion one has a higher probability to be hit by a car tommorow than to experience that "post-finasteride" stuff.

So many people on this board alone are posting sexual problems when taking finasteride.

The longer you take finasteride the more than of getting hit by that car....


[qupte]
And give us a break with DHT and the male brain... Do you really think male neurons functions completely different from female neurons??

[/quote:b0aoop53]

Yes. It's a fact. The composition of a male and female body in terms of hormones (Which are directly related to the pathways of the brain such as neurotransmitters etc) are hugely different, and the balances are very intricate.

So much mis-information on this forums about finasteride, quite frankly.

 

[cristi2011]

Anmd there are thousands of men complaining of persistent problems long after cessation. Me included. And Enden. And Finfighter. And monty. Infact there's about 10 or 15 on this forum alone.




So many people on this board alone are posting sexual problems when taking finasteride.

The longer you take finasteride the more than of getting hit by that car....


[qupte]
And give us a break with DHT and the male brain... Do you really think male neurons functions completely different from female neurons??

Yes. It's a fact. The composition our a male and female body in terms of hormones (Which are directly related to the pathways of the brain such as neurotransmitters etc) are hugely different, and the balances are intrigate.

So much mis-information on this forums about finasteride, quite frankly.[/quote]

"it's a fact"... said by whom?? By you, until you provide serious and documented evidence. Neurotransmitters don't work on DHT, be serious!!
Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??
And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

 

[cristi2011]

I think this is trolling.
Give us a break!
There are MILLIONS of people out there in the world who take finasteride and have no problems.
I don't totally exclude the possibility of those really bad sides you say, but in my opinion one has a higher probability to be hit by a car tommorow than to experience that "post-finasteride" stuff.
They are very RARE, IF they exist( nothing was observed in clinical studies!!!).
You cannot believe a minority of a few people who say they had big problems, when other MILLIONS didn't have any issue...
And give us a break with DHT and the male brain... Do you really think male neurons functions completely different from female neurons??

It's not trolling, that would be really sad... but **** me not as sad as the reality. Like i say, when alot of doctors are coming out with these things and in some cases explaining the mechanisms that cause these problems. I don't know whether or not you know much about endocrinology, i don't know a huge amount myself, but what doctors are saying about the effect on the endocrine system actually makes scientific sense. Regarding 'if they exist' people are taking up large scale lawsuits, doctors are increasingly reporting the problem and news agencies are picking up on it. I don't know the true percentage of people that suffer from these symptoms, it's very hard to tell things like that. Just take a look at the home page of propeciahelp.com. I'm not here for fun :0, i'm here because i don't want this to keep happening to people, more studies and trials are on their way, but why should there be so many casualties in the meantime?

Didn't hear about lawsuit, didn't hear about the increase in doctors reporting it.
What news agencies??
I think these are only in some people's imagination.
My doctor prescribed finasteride to hundreds of people for 10 years, not only one complained about such enormous exagerrated sides. The only problem was it did not work to a few.
Excuse me, but coming here with such apocalyptic scenarios with no evidence means Nothing!
Don't tell me about suicides, plenty of people commit suicide for reasons never understood by other. It is not due to peopecia, but to their mental problems...sorry to say that.
I say you have no evidence because there are 20 years since finasteride is used(aprovved in early 90's for prostate) and no study or trial indicated such serious sides! It means that, even if they exist, they are VERY VERY RARE. Please read the bold words 10 times!!
Because bad sides can occur with ANY medication, even the common ones for colds, but they are very rare!
So no point here. What do you mean? So you say don't take finasteride, because it gives bad sides to 1 from 100.000 people??
But then, i could say: maybe you shouldn't ever get into a car , because someone could crash into you and you could die... and we can find countless examples of trivial things we do each day(even eating food with additives), which pose a risk to our lives!! Each day we see on TV bad car crashes with multiple deaths. And what? let's interdict the cars?? Or you wouldn't get into a car? be serious...
Or we see people diying from cancer, who is supposedly triggered even by our everyday food full of additives... They don't bother even to prohibit those additives.
So, what's the deal with finasteride?? Let's say those bad sides and people who comiited suicide exist. But they are very rare, you simply can't deny this FACT.
And if i risk my life when i'm driving home, i could risk taking finasteride , growing back my hair, and very probably with no sides, such as millions of other people.
Many things we do everyday involves risk. No risk, no win...
Let's think realistically. If you had those bad sides, i'm sincerely sorry for you and wish you full and rapid recovery, but don;t come here, with an apocalyptic story and tell us how you think you don;t get it to 20 years of age, and believe we will instantly be scared to death and throw away the finasteride. Because we may be rational people. Ok, there may be a risk, but let'sd analyze it, is it so common?? Seems it's not. Almost very surely it's not.
20 years of finasteride, and you tell us that suddenly, over night, there appears many cases like this? Why didn;'t they appear 10 years ago, or 5 years ago... it simply isn't logical. It's only a recent hysteria this story with finasteride sides. And there are people who are scared very easily.

 

[Mens Rea]

"it's a fact"... said by whom?? By you, until you provide serious and documented evidence. Neurotransmitters don't work on DHT, be serious!!
Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??

It is. DO your homework, perhaps?

The fact that you just mention DHT proves that you aren't even qualified to have this debate.

Finasteride blocks other pathways beyond suppressing DHT. It blocks conversion of progesterone to dihyrotestosterone and also the synthesis of allopregnanolone a vital prototypic neurosteroid present in the in blood and brain.

And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

This is because you don't understand male sex homones and their effects.

You are trying to confer your lack of knowledge on the subject on to me. I reject this.

Incredulity doesn't change the reality.

 

[Ende]

Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??
And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

Like this forum is all about finasteride. It's a dangerous drug, whether you and other ignorant people realize it or not. Loss of morning erections is the first sign of altered testosterone/estrogen ratio; more specific - estrogen dominance. By seeing this as an insignificant problem and mocking people who report it; you're making a fool out of yourself.

 

[Mens Rea]

And if i risk my life when i'm driving home, i could risk taking finasteride , growing back my hair, and very probably with no sides, such as millions of other people.
Many things we do everyday involves risk. No risk, no win...

You miss one point.

Finasteride is taken for cosmetic reasons. I'm on this forum for the same reason as you - i hate my hairloss, but it's not a medical disease even if it feels like it at times.

So taking a drug that shrinks your prostrate and has been reported to make guys (atleast temporarily) impotent and infertile is going to be frowned upon, especially now when there are so many people popping up almost daily reporting that they are sexually ruined from finasteride. Some after 10 years of usage.

Every medication has its risks but finasteride was made for old guys with prostrate problems, not for young guys with male pattern baldness. Even if true post-finasteride syndrome manifests in only about 1%, that is still pretty intolerable given that that represents thousands of men..

It's a seriously potent drug that WILL alter your hormonal profile...so guys taking it for non-helath reasons is always going to be the subject of concern.

I get your point loud and clear though: you don't give a sh*t about the 1% so long as its you that is ok.

 

[cristi2011]

Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??
And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

Like this forum is all about finasteride. It's a dangerous drug, whether you and other ignorant people realize it or not. Loss of morning erections is the first sign of altered testosterone/estrogen ratio; more specific - estrogen dominance. By seeing this as an insignificant problem and mocking people who report it; you're making a fool out of yourself.

Oh please speak well to me, i didn't insult you!!
And excuse me, i'm not ridiculous at all. Ridiculous is to be scared by sides and stop taking finasteride only from losing the "morning wood".
What Testosterone/estrogen?? T is even increased by finasteride.
And, be serious, there's a difference from "ignorant people" to "people who arew scared even by their shadow". Maybe half way between them are rational people.

 

[cristi2011]

"it's a fact"... said by whom?? By you, until you provide serious and documented evidence. Neurotransmitters don't work on DHT, be serious!!
Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??

It is. DO your homework, perhaps?

The fact that you just mention DHT proves that you aren't even qualified to have this debate.

Finasteride blocks other pathways beyond suppressing DHT. It blocks conversion of progesterone to dihyrotestosterone and also the synthesis of allopregnanolone a vital prototypic neurosteroid present in the in blood and brain.

And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

This is because you don't understand male sex homones and their effects.

You are trying to confer your lack of knowledge on the subject on to me. I reject this.

Incredulity doesn't change the reality.

Are you a doctor? Do you have medical studies in endocrinology??
If not, don't even bother to tell me i don;t understand male hormones.
So, DHT is good and we can;t live without it. But then, finasteride doesn't shut it down completely. There's type 1 AR who continues to product DHT, and as i've read, this type 1 AR is involved in the brain. I know you'll come and mock me on this subject(only trying to turn the point in your advantage, like you always do), you'll say i don't know anything, but let me tell you a secret:even scientists don't fully understand many issues, so give me a break with "i don't understand".

 

[Ende]

Well, if you really believe it's bad, then don't take it. And in this case why enter this forum??
And the mega-sexual problems are, in most cases, "the morning wood"... excuse me, but it's ridiculous!!

Like this forum is all about finasteride. It's a dangerous drug, whether you and other ignorant people realize it or not. Loss of morning erections is the first sign of altered testosterone/estrogen ratio; more specific - estrogen dominance. By seeing this as an insignificant problem and mocking people who report it; you're making a fool out of yourself.

Oh please speak well to me, i didn't insult you!!
And excuse me, i'm not ridiculous at all. Ridiculous is to be scared by sides and stop taking finasteride only from losing the "morning wood".
What Testosterone/estrogen?? T is even increased by finasteride.
And, be serious, there's a difference from "ignorant people" to "people who arew scared even by their shadow". Maybe half way between them are rational people.

Your arrogance is provoking me. Did you understand what I wrote? Loss of morning erections is a serious warning. I'm fine with that people are using Propecia and promoting the drug if they don't have any side effects, but pissing on people who shares their bad experience, to warn other people about all the potential side effects (which Merck fails to do), is retarded.

I think people should try Propecia i they want to, but they have to be aware of the true risk, which means that they have to quit the drug immediately if they experience any sexual side effects. Merck encourage people to keep using the drug despite of side effects. This is what's dangerous!

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=65540

 

[Mens Rea]

What Testosterone/estrogen?? T is even increased by finasteride.
.

Yes, but so is estrogen (but a disproportionate amount).

The balance between T/E/DHT/Progesterone is disrupted.

And, be serious, there's a difference from "ignorant people" to "people who arew scared even by their shadow". Maybe half way between them are rational people

We can agree here, yes.

As for the morning wood though, it is a sign that the T/E ratio is disrupted. What you need to realise is if you get this after a few months on finasteride and yet you plan on taking it the next 30 years, you're taking a huge risk if you think things won't get worse. Testerone will dwindle naturally as you age and thus this estrogenic imbalance will become much more pronounced over time.

Finasteride shrinks the prostrate, too. This alone messes many guys up. I still have prostrate pain since finasteride.

Are you a doctor? Do you have medical studies in endocrinology??
If not, don't even bother to tell me i don;t understand male hormones.

That's stupidity. I'm telling you facts that anyone can tell you. I have spent hundreds of hours reading this stuff and have spoken to many top endochronologists about finasteride. I am well placed to tell you that you are short on information. I don't ask you to take my word for it, but if you are interested just go and do the reading yourself. It's all there..

So, DHT is good and we can;t live without it. But then, finasteride doesn't shut it down completely. There's type 1 AR who continues to product DHT, and as i've read, this type 1 AR is involved in the brain. I know you'll come and mock me on this subject(only trying to turn the point in your advantage, like you always do), you'll say i don't know anything, but let me tell you a secret:even scientists don't fully understand many issues, so give me a break with "i don't understand".

Finasteride inhibits approximately 65% of total DHT. This disrupts many things. DHT created from 5ARII is found primarily in the hair follicles and the prostrate, yes. It's the prostrate in particular that finasteride messes with.

And yes, i agree, even the scientists don't know everything. The fact that we now know lots of things about finasteride's mechanisms than we did when it was FDA approved alone shows us how dangerous all of this is.

This scares the sh*t of out me. More and more men are taking propecia daily and more and more men are reporting persistent problems. In 10 years I dread to think how things will look. The signs aren't good, at all.

This is hearsay for instance - but i spoke to a guy who had a conversion with a top fertility doctor. This doctor said he is finding a seriously disturbing trend arising between guys coming in for help due to fertility problems and them being (or had been) finasteride users. This is just one example of the underlying trends that will take many years to really come to surface.

Ultimately its this grey area that should scare all of us because it is there that so many men are meeting sexual hell, including myself.

 

[Hairforever]

I wouldn't be surprised if the very people on this forum who steadfastly standup for finasteride end up with serious side effects at some point, whether it's in 6 months, a year, 5 years or 10-years' time. The sides creep up on you and it's easy to be in denial because the alternative is to lose precious hair. The irony is they could end up a biological wreck and bald. At that point being bald will be the last thing on their mind.

 

[Wuffer]

To the OP, this topic has been debated to death on hundreds of different threads on this forum. I don't think your post is exactly trolling, but everybody already knows about propeciahelp.

I'm personally stepping back from this debate for the time being. There are a number of new studies underway, including a large-scale inquiry performed by medical professionals specializing in a number of disciplines. Honestly, we all argue online about this, but none of us have a medical degree. Even the ones that have done A LOT of research into hormones don't even know 1% of what the actual medical experts know.

So let's all just wait and see; leave this up to the experts to figure out. The more people argue, the more confused everyone gets and the more misinformation we see online.

 

[Mens Rea]

. Even the ones that have done A LOT of research into hormones don't even know 1% of what the actual medical experts know.
.

Disagree wholeheartedly.

Unless there is a top line medical expert out there working undercover unbeknownst to us, then this is definately not the case having spoken with the top experts that are actively involved with our plight....

Sad but true.

 

[Wuffer]

Cando, absolutely no disrespect directed towards you, but the reason that PFS is not yet an accepted and acknowledged condition is simply because the only proof we have right now is anecdotal evidence in the forms from stories like yours. Admittedly, the anecdotal evidence is substantial and powerful, but it simply isn't proof.

I can understand how absolutely frustrating it would be for someone in your position to hear me talk like this, but it's true. People here simply cannot take the word of others on this forum. We don't know your medical history, we don't know if you even took finasteride, or if you are even having problems. I'm not saying those things are true, but we simply don't know these things.

There is very obviously a LOT of guys that are having problems after taking finasteride. It's definitely cause for concern, and it is prompting a lot more studies and inquiries into it. That's great! But guys really shouldn't base their decisions on these stories. As I said before, let’s simply wait and listen to the experts. I'm very happy they are currently working at getting to the bottom of this. As a person that currently takes finasteride, I want to be as informed as possible. I fully expect I may be proven completely wrong here.

Right now, there is no substantial evidence that tells the average guy it's dangerous to take finasteride. There is no arguing that fact. As a result of the study I mentioned before, maybe this will change in a couple months. On the other hand, maybe it will prove something entirely different is going on! We don't know till we know.

I also want to state for the record I am extremely sympathetic to your cause, and I support you guys in terms that I want to see you recover 100%. My problem is the way this 'awareness' is being spread across the community; I feel it is generally detrimental, misguided scare mongering. I don’t think your post is exactly scare mongering, but this is a reflection of what I see on the forums in general.

Propeciahelp doesn’t come across like a self-help forum. It comes across as a group of individuals with an agenda. I get completely depressed when I visit that forum. Not because of the stories, but because of the extremely negative, hopeless tone the members perpetuate. Couple this with the agenda to discredit Merck and the strong motivation to ‘spread the word’ and convince as many people as possible that finasteride is poison; it’s just simply confusing to me. I strongly feel that the website has done much more harm than good.

 

[Mens Rea]

Right now, there is no substantial evidence that tells the average guy it's dangerous to take finasteride. There is no arguing that fact. As a result of the study I mentioned before, maybe this will change in a couple months. On the other hand, maybe it will prove something entirely different is going on! We don't know till we know.

Wuffer. You are talking about a "study" that will simply be a bigger case study on guys like myself and Enden. The study is about its subjects. You can speak to the many hundreds of eligible ones directly if you want the scoop. You do,. But yet you want it written on paper (probably by a medical "expert" that doesn't even know any more than you're reading on this forum iroinically) to give it validity.

I could have writen the Dr Irwig study / told you exactly what it would say.

Obviously this is your perogative but i dont think everyone should or does insist on such "burden of proof", especially in the circumstances than men are getting hurt in the interim. The "luxury" of the "lack of studies" shouldn't be used to belittle the obvious plight that is becoming endemic.

Propeciahelp doesn’t come across like a self-help forum. It comes across as a group of individuals with an agenda. I get completely depressed when I visit that forum. Not because of the stories, but because of the extremely negative, hopeless tone the members perpetuate. Couple this with the agenda to discredit Merck and the strong motivation to ‘spread the word’ and convince as many people as possible that finasteride is poison; it’s just simply confusing to me. I strongly feel that the website has done much more harm than good.

An agenda? Their (our) agenda is based on real life experience of finasteride ruining their lives. That "agenda" is perfectly understandable given there are guys like you out there dismissing them with incredulity.

More harm than good? That's quite simply an outrageous comment. Clearly your idea of "harm" is widespead awareness of the risks (evne if it is for 1%).

 

[wessneijder]

Mens rea

I cannot understand how the clinical trials would go forward if doctors involved (employed by Merck) had any doubt whether the hormonal imbalances you claim are so damaging. Wouldn't the FDA in its independent study consider this?

 

[Mens Rea]

Mens rea

I cannot understand how the clinical trials would go forward if doctors involved (employed by Merck) had any doubt whether the hormonal imbalances you claim are so damaging.

Even the warning labels have been updated since it has went on the market. This now includes persisting ED, infertility (in some countries) and depression. "Post-marketing experience"....

Also, are you aware of other MERCK drugs that were later taken off the market? This isn't a new thing.

Wouldn't the FDA in its independent study consider this?

What study would this be?