FAO College...Borage

[bolshy]

College,

I'm curious as to why you believe that the GLA in Borage needs a vehicle to be absorbed transcutaneously. I could be wrong, but 'm sure I've read a couple of medical articles saying that it IS in fact absorbed really well...but i need to have scout around to confirm this.

I've just got some oil (details below) that I'm taking orally, giving me over a gram in GLA, I'm now considering putting this stuff in my topical regime....what do you think? I would have thought that a bigger issue is the quality of the GLA, in terms of how it was extracted, quality etc.

Since I've got your attention can you let me know why you are opposed to Spectral DNC, I'm sure there is a good reason but I can't see an obvious one other than its a bit pricey.

Cheers.

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[CCS]

i NEVER said it needs a vehicle. maybe a month ago I might have wondered if it would need one, but that is irrelavent to any of my recent post.


for the record, I am saying Borage seed oil will not affect hair loss. Maybe a small amount will be broken down to GLA and glycerol and the GLA will inhibit 5ar, but I would not count on this happening in the skin unless you can post some studies.

GLA, which is found in borage oil, can topically inhibit 5ar, but not if it is bonded to glycerol, as it is in borageseed oil. Fatty acids are bonded to glycerol to make oils. This is basic biology knowledge.

And I will repeat that saw palmetto will have little effect too. It may have some small effects, but only because saw palmetto has a higher percentage of free fatty acids than most oils do.

and emu oil is a scam. If you think it works for you, then great. but corn oil regrew 80% as much hair as the emu and is cheaper, and i suspect the study was done in the spring when people naturally grow more hair.

 

[bolshy]

thanks for taking the time and effort to post a reply College, it's appreciated.

The study I mentioned about the transcutaneous absorbtion wasnt actually related to hairloss, it was about tamoxifen for breast cancer, but since i cant find my hard copy anywhere it's irrelevant (claimed very high levels of absoprtion of GLA from Borage). Tend to disagree about the benefits of oral borage...my current dose gives me 1.5g of GLA daily which I believe is going to help, but we'll see I suppose.

I never mentioned emu oil...wouldnt touch the stuff...I asked for your rationale re. Spectral DNC! Any thoughts?

 

[CCS]

i don't know enought about nanosomes to say anything about Spectral DNC. I also don't know how long minoxidil stays in the blood vessel walls without nanosomes.

Aside from that issue, the CPs and minoxidil are expensive since you only get a 1 month supply for $35. Aminexil is supposed to be a little better than minoxidil, according to its maker, but the studies were only done by the makers, and no one else. Even they admit minoxidil does the same stuff but not as well, and they don't specify how much better it is.

I don't know much about azaleic acid, but unless xandrox regrows as much hair as minoxidil and dutasteride combined, and maintains for years, I would strongly doubt it inhibits 98% of DHT, or at least not 5ar2.

I'd like to wait for more evidence before buying that stuff, though I heard that some people had good results with it.

 

[Bryan]

Tend to disagree about the benefits of oral borage...my current dose gives me 1.5g of GLA daily which I believe is going to help, but we'll see I suppose.

Why do you think it's going to help your hair?

Bryan

 

[bolshy]

Obviously I dont know as much about hair loss as you and others on this site Bryan, but if GLA inhibits 5-Alpha Reductase it has to be a good thing doesnt it? Problem seems to be that most supplements only deliver small amounts of GLA which therefore doesnt do that much, but if I'm taking 1.5g a day then surely it will impact on the production of DHT...or am I way off the mark? Limiting 5-alpha reductase, DHT levels are correspondingly reduced...I think?

Gamma Linolenic Acid (GLA), Alpha Linolenic Acid (ALA), Linoleic and Oleic Acid are essential fatty acids found in plant oils. These fatty acids have been individually proven to inhibit 5-Alpha Reductase. In fact these are the most powerful inhibitors of 5-Alpha Reductase known today and not only they inhibit the Type II form of the 5-Alpha Reductase which other products like Propecia® inhibit, but also the Type I form of the enzyme which is present in high concentrations in the scalp, sebaceous glands, and the skin. Additionally GLA, ALA and Oleic acid have potent anti-inflammatory properties.

 

[CCS]

bolshy, i just got through explaining this to you. read my post again.



for the record, he is NOT taking 1.5g per day of GLA. He is just taking oils that contain GLA bonded to glycerol, which is completely different.

 

[bolshy]

I'm not quite sure what I've done to offend you college, but to clarify, I have been an infrequent poster on this site since 2002...so the chances of me trying to sell stuff as you suggest is frankly very offensive.

The oils that I'm taking orally contain GLA 1.5g...yes of course its bonded to glycerol...its an oil for god's sake. The body takes care of the break down of this so we can absorb the GLA. Now if are saying that GLA is of no use to the body, that's your opinion, but it's not one shared by just about every nutritionist in the world.

The areas of controversy are:
1. When applied topically, can the body absorb the GLA transcutaneously in some useful form (ie to inhibit 5-Alpha Reductase (1&2)?
2. Can taking large amounts of GLA (in whatever form) orally provide the body with benefits to inhibit 5-Alpha Reductase?

If you don't know the answers...just say so, dont feel the need to have a go at me. Personally I'm giving the oral 1.5g a go and I may give further consideration to some topical application, but I'm awaiting word back from someone who knows more about this stuff than you and I.

 

[Bryan]

The areas of controversy are:
1. When applied topically, can the body absorb the GLA transcutaneously in some useful form (ie to inhibit 5-Alpha Reductase (1&2)?

I don't think "transcutaneous" absorption has much to do with it. The GLA goes directly into the pilosebaceous unit, apparently. Its effects were demonstrated in the well-known hamster study, plus the small human experiment in that patent that I posted recently which showed a reduction in sebum production.

2. Can taking large amounts of GLA (in whatever form) orally provide the body with benefits to inhibit 5-Alpha Reductase?

Almost certainly not.

Bryan

 

[bolshy]

For point 2. Brian, I know that you think not, but I can't really get my head as to why not.

Perhaps it will just have to remain one of lifes mysteries, but there is such a wealth of evidence to demonstrate the impact in terms of oral GLA on a plethora of conditions, that to me it's impact on hair loss is logical given the proven characteristics in inhibiting 5-Alpha Reductase (1&2)?

Perhaps its just me! It'd be nice if there was a study out there

 

[CCS]

if oral gla blocks 5ar in the scalp, it would block it everywhere else too. Since it affects flank organ, it would affect the 5ar1 in the brain too.

But maybe instead of blocking the AR, it could just reduce the number of AR's. Or the number of 5ar's. I wonder if experiments have shown just what it does. We know it shrinks flank organ, and that takes some time.

I don't know if scalp on bald men acts aged because of the damage DHT does to it, or if the DHT is a result of a process similar to aging. Older people do have trouble synthesizing GLA.

I don't remember the amounts Bryan posted, but I thought I calculated from them that I'd need about 120mg per day to cover my thinning areas. So if the GLA goes to every part of your body, you would need about 400 times that much for your scalp to get that much, unless the body took it straight there. So that is 40g per day. That is a lot of GLA, and borage seed oil is not pure GLA.

i wonder if it would be healthy to drink fatty acids, without their glycerol. The body would not synthesize glycerol for them, so that would affect how they are used.

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it seems like every 3 weeks or so I get very angry for no good reason and get upset at people. I don't know why. It usually only lasts 5 minutes, I think. My father has always blown up a lot, sporatically, and been really nice and calm the rest of the time. At least I don't blow up like he does. The last time before I got on this site I was talking to a friend who said she used to think "feminine" guys were gay, but now suspected this is not always true. I got upset because I thought she was more sophisticated than that, and knew that there is no such thing as masculinity and femininity, or gender roles. I called her stupid, and she made sure to call me on it. I thought her statement proved that the whole time I knew her, she was just pretending to be liberal and modern. That is no reason to get upset, though.

 

[Bryan]

For point 2. Brian, I know that you think not, but I can't really get my head as to why not.

To get a sufficient quantity into your hair follicles for the specific purpose of inhibiting 5a-reductase, you have to FLOOD them with sufficient quantities of that fatty acid externally. Merely taking a gram or two of it orally and then having that divided up among all the tissues of your entire body is going to provide just a tiny fraction of that to any one specific tissue. It's just common sense.

Perhaps it will just have to remain one of lifes mysteries,

I don't think it's a "mystery" at all.

...but there is such a wealth of evidence to demonstrate the impact in terms of oral GLA on a plethora of conditions, that to me it's impact on hair loss is logical given the proven characteristics in inhibiting 5-Alpha Reductase (1&2)?

Yes, but just because oral GLA might be effective for ONE specific purpose (acting as a substrate for hormones or prostaglandins), that doesn't automatically guarantee that it would be effective for EVERY specific purpose you can think of! :wink: You have to keep in mind that it's not by any stretch of the imagination a natural or normal thing to flood the surface of the skin/scalp with huge, supraphysiological amounts of a free fatty acid like GLA. You have to understand that that's having a DRUG-LIKE action, it's not just an extension of what's supposed to happen naturally. To get that same effect to occur naturally, you might have to consume about a pound or two of borage oil every day!! And even then, I still wouldn't be sure that the GLA would arrive at the cells in the proper "free" form to have the desired effect (remember that most fat circulates in the bloodstream in the form of triglycerides).

Perhaps its just me! It'd be nice if there was a study out there

There IS a study out there, which I've posted about a few times on alt.baldspot. It showed that the oral consumption of just about the same amount of GLA that you're talking about (a gram and a half, IIRC) had no effect at reducing serum DHT.

Bryan

 

[bolshy]

Thanks for the considered repsonses fellas.

I'm going to continue with the oral fatty acids because of the other health benefits anyway, but I'm probably going to try adding topical Borage/flax oil a couple of days a week in case there are any benefits (including the irritation problems I'm having with minoxidil).

Cheers