Equol.

[michael barry]

This is where the soy excitement proboably started......[url]http://hairloss-reversible ... news14.htm[/url]

This is where the broccholi info comes from http://hairloss-reversible.com/hair_new ... _news9.htm


AND THIS IS JUST FASCINATING>>>>>>CHECK IT OUT>>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4283302.stm




Back to soy for a sec guys.......Japanese dermatologists note that rural Japanese eating soy based diets with very little red meat are smaller people who RARELY bald, while city dwellers who eat red meat and drink whole milk are bigger people who bald MUCH more often. 35% or so of our population produce equol, Im guessing maybe asiatics make more. Maybe its the androgens in the extra meat during puberty that is leading to the new increased levels of baldness or maybe the equol is a natural dutasteride for some people. I have read in many places that soy is both good and bad for health, but recently read in the newspaper that it lowers the risks of breast cancer in women by 46% ( I have no idea how they get these percentages).........maybe its good for hair in other ways though like b-vitamins or silica. Its cheap protien for the masses in some ways..

 

[rico24]

let me first define a couple of things so that we are all clear.
Finasteride: Blocks conversion of Testosterone - DHT by inhibiting type 2 5-AR
Dutasteride: Blocks conversion of Testosterone - DHT by inhibiting type 1 and 2 5-AR
Equol: Deactivates (not sure how) DHT molecule, or prevents from binding.

Its the level of cirrculating TESTOSTERONE that controls levels of LH in the negative feedback loop, not DHT. If it were DHT, people on finasteride and dutasteride would have ever increasing levels of LH, and ever increasing levels of T beacause there would be no DHT availiable to stop LH production. With that being said, I beleive what some people have been trying to say, when they said "equol doesent mess with your hormones", is that it doesent have any effect on testosterone levels or DHT levels like finasteride and dutasteride, it simply prevents DHT from binding, it doesent change the level of DHT in your body. So saying that finasteride and dutasteride and eqoul all have the same effect in your body is a misinformed statement.

 

[Dave001]

let me first define a couple of things so that we are all clear.
Finasteride: Blocks conversion of Testosterone - DHT by inhibiting type 2 5-AR
Dutasteride: Blocks conversion of Testosterone - DHT by inhibiting type 1 and 2 5-AR
Equol: Deactivates (not sure how) DHT molecule, or prevents from binding.

Its the level of cirrculating TESTOSTERONE that controls levels of LH in the negative feedback loop, not DHT. If it were DHT, people on finasteride and dutasteride would have ever increasing levels of LH, and ever increasing levels of T beacause there would be no DHT availiable to stop LH production.

Estradiol and DHT (in descending order of potency) both have a much greater inhibitory effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis than testosterone. Your suggestion that the absence of one of the regulators of hormonal production could result in an "ever increasing levels of T" is ridiculous beyond comprehension and deserves no further comment.

 

[Bryan]

Its the level of cirrculating TESTOSTERONE that controls levels of LH in the negative feedback loop, not DHT.

Dave answered you quite well, but please allow me to enlarge just a tad on what he said!

The PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) clearly states that LH and FSH levels rise slightly when taking finasteride. Here's what my old 1993 edition says in the section on Proscar:

"...Increases of about 10% were observed in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and testosterone in patients receiving Proscar, but levels remained within the normal range."

Now, that's just a bit of a problem for your point-of-view, isn't it? If testosterone tends to rise during finasteride usage for the very simple reason that readers of hairloss forums have always assumed to be correct for the last several years (that less T is being metabolized to DHT, so there's simply more T "hanging around"), then wouldn't you expect LH and FSH to actually go DOWN slightly, rather than UP slightly? :wink:

In other words, the brain would see a little extra T in the bloodstream and release a little less LH to compensate, not more. That's the way a feedback mechanism works: it adjusts the level of the regulating hormone (LH, in this case) to maintain the same level of the substance being controlled (testosterone, in this case). The fact that the OPPOSITE of that happens when you take finasteride or dutasteride (LH goes up, rather than down) is a clear demonstration that DHT is also a player in the brain/gonadal feedback loop which controls the synthesis of testosterone, in addition to estradiol and testosterone itself.

If it were DHT, people on finasteride and dutasteride would have ever increasing levels of LH, and ever increasing levels of T beacause there would be no DHT availiable to stop LH production.

As Dave pointed out, that statement makes no sense whatsoever. There won't be "ever increasing" amounts of LH and T, just a certain finite increase. About 10%, to be precise! :wink:

The obvious hole in your logic is that nobody's claiming that DHT is the only player in the feedback control mechanism, just one of them. And the others (testosterone and estradiol) are more potent ones than DHT.

With that being said, I beleive what some people have been trying to say, when they said "equol doesent mess with your hormones", is that it doesent have any effect on testosterone levels or DHT levels like finasteride and dutasteride, it simply prevents DHT from binding, it doesent change the level of DHT in your body. So saying that finasteride and dutasteride and eqoul all have the same effect in your body is a misinformed statement.

Look, I already mentioned one of the famous rat experiments which was done with equol on rats. Listen to me carefully: LH (LUTEINIZING HORMONE) LEVELS WERE INCREASED, just like they are with finasteride and dutasteride. So testosterone levels will rise, just like they do with finasteride/dutasteride. I repeat what I've said several times before: equol should have similar effects as finasteride and dutasteride.

Bryan

 

[rico24]

Ive never seen this rat/equol experiment, if you could direct me towards it so I could read it for myself, that would help. From my understanding, if an affect is observed in an experiment, it only suggests a correlation, not causation or a direct cause and effect relationship. So I think we need to steer clear of the "if I put A in my body and B happens, then A must have caused B" argument because thats where we get into trouble.
Another thing I need to ask, are you a physician? Beacause if you are, thats great, ill respect your opinion. If not, I have a problem with regular people thumbing through reference books and finding a line or two that suppports their argument when they lack a foundation or basic understanding. And I just have to add, endocrinology and other related fields are painfully complex and understanding how all the different chemicals and reactions work in our bodies are not as simple as people who write on this forum make them out to be.

 

[rico24]

Just one more side note:
Bryan is saying this

And the others (testosterone and estradiol) are more potent ones than DHT.

and dave is saying this, I mean, which one is it fellas?

Estradiol and DHT (in descending order of potency) both have a much greater inhibitory effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis than testosterone

 

[Bryan]

Ive never seen this rat/equol experiment, if you could direct me towards it so I could read it for myself, that would help.

I don't have a link to it anymore, but I'm sure you could find it with a quick Google search on the words "equol rat".

From my understanding, if an affect is observed in an experiment, it only suggests a correlation, not causation or a direct cause and effect relationship. So I think we need to steer clear of the "if I put A in my body and B happens, then A must have caused B" argument because thats where we get into trouble.

That's IT? That's all you're going to say about my discussion above?

Another thing I need to ask, are you a physician? Beacause if you are, thats great, ill respect your opinion. If not, I have a problem with regular people thumbing through reference books and finding a line or two that suppports their argument when they lack a foundation or basic understanding.

Since it's now obvious to me that you have far more faith in AUTHORITY than in any true scientific discussion, I guess I'm wasting my breath in trying to convince you of the truth of what I'm saying. It's a pity.

BTW, even Rittmaster himself expressed the same position I did in an article he wrote about finasteride a few years ago.

And I just have to add, endocrinology and other related fields are painfully complex and understanding how all the different chemicals and reactions work in our bodies are not as simple as people who write on this forum make them out to be.

Ok, Rico, I can see I'm wasting my time on this. Catch ya later...

Bryan

 

[Dave001]

Another thing I need to ask, are you a physician? Beacause if you are, thats great, ill respect your opinion.

Well, your decision making process doesn't seem to have been very successful in the past. Perhaps it's time to reconsider.

 

[michael barry]

http://hairloss-reversible.com/hair_new ... news14.htm

that is an article that states exactly how equol works. It binds with DHT so it cannot in turn bind with an androgen receptor. Equol is made in some people whose intestinal bacteria break down soy isoflavens in such a way as to produce equol. Its estimated that only 30-50% of people do this. If there was a sophisticated test available to see if youre one of these people, perhaps equol is for you. However, It really hasnt been TESTED for hair loss yet and everything thats proven for prostate health doesnt grow hair. So who knows?

 

[Bryan]

However, It really hasnt been TESTED for hair loss yet and everything thats proven for prostate health doesnt grow hair.

No, but because equol and finasteride do essentially the same thing, equol will almost certainly be effective for hair, just like finasteride. It'll almost certainly be much more expensive than finasteride, too! :wink:

Bryan