EGCG displaces estradiol from the estrogen receptor.

OverMachoGrande

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I'm sitting here at home drinking a nice cup of green tea, when I came across an article saying that women who drink green tea have 13% lower estrogen levels, which is important to know considering estrogen (and IGF-1) cause breast cancer in women and prostate cancer in men. So I decided to google the terms "green tea IGF-1" and "green tea estradiol". Not surprisingly I found that the green tea polyphenols EGCG increased IGFBP-3 (which is shown to be low in men with male pattern baldness) and that these same polyphenols help to decrease circulating estrogen levels as well.

The study below shows that EGCG (a polyphenol found in green tea) can compete for binding to the estrogen receptors.

Also, if you look at the molecular structure of EGCG it looks similar to estradiol (and D.H.T.)!



Estrogen Receptor-Mediated Actions of Polyphenolic Catechins in Vivo and in Vitro
M. G. Goodin*, K. C. Fertuck, T. R. Zacharewski and R. J. Rosengren*,1
* Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand; and Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, and National Food Safety and Toxicology Center, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan 48824

Recent investigations have demonstrated that polyphenolic catechins inhibit breast cancer cell proliferation and tumor growth. However, the ER-mediated effects of the three predominant catechins (EGCG, ECG, and EGC) have not been extensively examined in vitro or in vivo. Therefore, EGCG, ECG, and EGC were examined for their ability to compete with [3H]-17ß-estradiol ([3H]-E2) for binding to ER and ERß and to elicit reporter gene activity in MCF-7 human breast cancer cells transiently transfected with either chimeric ER or ERß. EGCG and ECG displaced [3H]-E2 from GST-hERdef (D, E, and F domains of human ER fused to GST) or from full-length human ERß. Additionally, only EGCG elicited Gal4-hERdef and Gal4-mERßdef-mediated reporter gene expression (EC50 values: 28 and 19 µM, respectively) in MCF-7 cells cotransfected with a Gal4-regulated luciferase reporter gene. In cotreatment experiments, EGCG (1–50 µM) and ECG (1 µM) decreased E2-induced (1 nM) ERß-mediated gene expression 35–50%. In vivo, no catechin induced estrogenic responses (uterine weight or uterine peroxidase activity) in immature C57BL/6 mice. However, when mice were cotreated with E2 (10 µg/kg/day, 3 days) and either EGCG (30 and 50 mg/kg/day, 3 days) or ECG (50 mg/kg/day, 3 days), uterine peroxidase activity was increased 2.3-fold above that elicited by E2 alone. In conclusion, EGCG and ECG bind to ER and ERß, but only EGCG elicited ER-mediated gene expression in vitro. However, both of these compounds moderately increased E2-inducible responses in vivo.

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... t/69/2/354
 

follicle84

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Yes i've read somewhere that green tea can protect against estrogen. Looks like this confirms it.
 

Hoppi

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I'm sorry, you will have to excuse my obvious noobiness, but I don't understand the negative effects of bound estradiol? Surely I mean, this can only either mean it is bound and mopped up, or perhaps carried to hair follicles where it does no harm?

Sorry, maybe I'm being an idiot, it's just I've been focussing much more on testosterone and DHT :)
 

OverMachoGrande

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Hoppi said:
I'm sorry, you will have to excuse my obvious noobiness, but I don't understand the negative effects of bound estradiol? Surely I mean, this can only either mean it is bound and mopped up, or perhaps carried to hair follicles where it does no harm?

Sorry, maybe I'm being an idiot, it's just I've been focussing much more on testosterone and DHT :)

When estradiol binds to S.H.B.G. it has the same effects as D.H.T.
This is why old men (with low androgens and high estrogens) get prostate enlargement and bald, regardless of low androgen levels. An aromatase inhibitor doesn't work to solve these problems because the problem isn't aromatase...the problem is SHBG-bound-estradiol; an aromatase inhibitor does nothing to detach estradiol away from sex hormone binding globulin!

An aromatase inhibitor only prevents further "damage" but doesn't do anything to reverse the problem...same could be said with alpha-5-reductase inhibitors; they prevent further D.H.T. production, but they do not displace D.H.T. that has already bonded with the androgen receptor (SHBG).
 

OverMachoGrande

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Cassin said:
In English for the masses.

So is it ok to drink green tea or not?

Of course! Green tea is shown to promote optimal hormone levels and balances; it decreases estrogen, it increases IGFBPs and SHBG, it protects against diabetes, B.P.H. and atherosclerosis---all three diseases of which correlate with male pattern baldness!
 

Hoppi

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misterE said:
Cassin said:
In English for the masses.

So is it ok to drink green tea or not?

Of course! Green tea is shown to promote optimal hormone levels and balances; it decreases estrogen, it increases IGFBPs and SHBG, it protects against diabetes, B.P.H. and atherosclerosis---all three diseases of which correlate with male pattern baldness!

I did read somewhere though that it increases DHT somehow erm.. here, this old thread:

viewtopic.php?t=31510


what do you think of that?
 

OverMachoGrande

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Hoppi said:
I did read somewhere though that it increases DHT somehow erm.. here, this old thread:

viewtopic.php?t=31510


what do you think of that?

Yeah, I can see green tea increasing D.H.T., because green tea increases sex hormone binding globulin. D.H.T. has a very strong binding affinity to S.H.B.G. (nearly three times as much as testosterone).

But...I do not believe D.H.T. is only culprit in hair loss; bad estrogen (estradiol and 16-hydroxyestrogen) has a negative role as well. And of course IGF-1 also has a negative role when it comes to baldness (and prostate enlargement).
 

timbo

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misterE said:
But...I do not believe D.H.T. is only culprit in hair loss; bad estrogen (estradiol and 16-hydroxyestrogen) has a negative role as well. And of course IGF-1 also has a negative role when it comes to baldness (and prostate enlargement).

I think it's possible that there are other factors involved in male pattern baldness besides DHT. But If you are willing to make those assertions, explain why those with 5ar deficiencies never experience male pattern baldness. Or why finasteride has the ability to completely stop hairloss in some men for 10+ years when scalp DHT levels are only decreased by ~38%.
 

OverMachoGrande

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timbo said:
I think it's possible that there are other factors involved in male pattern baldness besides DHT. But If you are willing to make those assertions, explain why those with 5ar deficiencies never experience male pattern baldness. Or why finasteride has the ability to completely stop hairloss in some men for 10+ years when scalp DHT levels are only decreased by ~38%.

DHT decreases sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG is known to be lower in men with male pattern baldness. So if you have alpha-5-reductase deficiency, you aren't gunna make any DHT, so therefor you will have high SHBG/testosterone and low estrogen due to the high SHBG (which will prevent the testosterone from converting into estrogens).

Finasteride is crap...if it worked no one would be bald! But I can see it slowing down the progression of baldness. Because when you inhibit only the production (not the real problem; SHBG-bound-DHT) you will have an increase in SHBG (because DHT lowers SHBG).

Plus I hear that propecia becomes defective after the age of 30, because this is when your androgens begin to fall and estrogens rise...obviously Finasteride doesn't deal with the estradiol factor!
 

Hoppi

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misterE said:
Finasteride is crap...if it worked no one would be bald! But I can see it slowing down the progression of baldness. Because when you inhibit only the production (not the real problem; SHBG-bound-DHT) you will have an increase in SHBG (because DHT lowers SHBG).

Plus I hear that propecia becomes defective after the age of 30, because this is when your androgens begin to fall and estrogens rise...obviously Finasteride doesn't deal with the estradiol factor!

I grabbed some beta-sitosterol recently - do you think that if I took maybe 320mg a day or equivalent that it would have a better effect than finasteride? I really can't decide which one to put my trust in ._.
 

OverMachoGrande

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Hoppi said:
I grabbed some beta-sitosterol recently - do you think that if I took maybe 320mg a day or equivalent that it would have a better effect than finasteride?

Yes...most definitely. Propecia only prevents further DHT production. It doesn't do anything to block androgen/estrogen receptors (SHBG). Beta sitosterol binds to SHBG, which prevents DHT and estradiol from binding...which is exactly what you want.

Also beta sitosterol is also considered a phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) so it is able to stimulate SHBG production. It's also able to balance the immune system and lower cholesterol.

Beta sitosterol is very very strong. I wouldn't suggest taking it every day, maybe once every two days. Beta sitosterol is truly amazing...also it is interesting to note that every herb or plant that helps protect the hair and prostate has beta sitosterol in it!
 

Hoppi

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misterE said:
Hoppi said:
I grabbed some beta-sitosterol recently - do you think that if I took maybe 320mg a day or equivalent that it would have a better effect than finasteride?

Yes...most definitely. Propecia only prevents further DHT production. It doesn't do anything to block androgen/estrogen receptors (SHBG). Beta sitosterol binds to SHBG, which prevents DHT and estradiol from binding...which is exactly what you want.

Also beta sitosterol is also considered a phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) so it is able to stimulate SHBG production. It's also able to balance the immune system and lower cholesterol.

Beta sitosterol is very very strong. I wouldn't suggest taking it every day, maybe once every two days. Beta sitosterol is truly amazing...also it is interesting to note that every herb or plant that helps protect the hair and prostate has beta sitosterol in it!

wow really is that true? But what about Pygeum Bark and stuff?

sorry about this I know I am full of questions - like the one I sent you by PM about the b-S and sebum thing! heh :)

I do apologize! :)
 

Hoppi

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hehe you like your "..." posts don't you? :)

I'm afraid often these threads are a little too technical for me to get too stuck in! hehe

Although I am always looking for real scientific reasons to incorporate new things into my regimen :)
 

baller234

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misterE said:
Hoppi said:
I grabbed some beta-sitosterol recently - do you think that if I took maybe 320mg a day or equivalent that it would have a better effect than finasteride?

Yes...most definitely. Propecia only prevents further DHT production. It doesn't do anything to block androgen/estrogen receptors (SHBG). Beta sitosterol binds to SHBG, which prevents DHT and estradiol from binding...which is exactly what you want.

Also beta sitosterol is also considered a phytoestrogen (plant estrogen) so it is able to stimulate SHBG production. It's also able to balance the immune system and lower cholesterol.

Beta sitosterol is very very strong. I wouldn't suggest taking it every day, maybe once every two days. Beta sitosterol is truly amazing...also it is interesting to note that every herb or plant that helps protect the hair and prostate has beta sitosterol in it!

Why not just take both? Finasteride and Beta-sitosterol are a very potent combination. Also why do you suggest not taking it every day? I take 1000+ mg every day in addition to finasteride with no sexual sides (not recommending this as a starting dosage). High estradiol was the only thing that has ever given me sexual sides. Lower your estradiol with grape seed extract (or ANY aromatase inhibitor) flaxseed/7HMR spruce lignans (enterlactone precursors- enterlactone prevents estrone (good estrogen) from converting to estradiol).



Everyone's endocrine system is different but IMO it's pretty damn hard to have sexual side effects with low estradiol.
 
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