A
Nevis
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Anybody see the new Glaxo pipeline webpage?
http://science.gsk.com/pipeline/pipeline_01.htm
Hit the button for Cardiovascular/Urogenital. It has "dutasteride" listed twice. Once as a treatment for alopecia in Phase II trials. And then again at the bottom as being approved for BPH. Still doesn't have it's tradename up there though. Although it is dated march 2002. At least it's up there in the pipeline for male pattern baldness though.
http://science.gsk.com/pipeline/pipeline_01.htm
Hit the button for Cardiovascular/Urogenital. It has "dutasteride" listed twice. Once as a treatment for alopecia in Phase II trials. And then again at the bottom as being approved for BPH. Still doesn't have it's tradename up there though. Although it is dated march 2002. At least it's up there in the pipeline for male pattern baldness though.
"DUTASTERIDE IS AVAILABLE"
ITS ALL OVER THE OTHER HAIRLOSS SITES...IS THIS FOR REAL....?....
THEY DON'T EVEN TAKE UR CREDIT CARD DETAILS, THEY SAY THEY WILL EMAIL ME IN 3 DAYS TO INFORM ME ABOUT MY ORDER.............WE'LL JUST HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE
WHY HAVEN'T THEY CALLED IT AVOLVE?..........IS SOMETHING DODGY IS GOING ON :?:
ITS ALL OVER THE OTHER HAIRLOSS SITES...IS THIS FOR REAL....?....
THEY DON'T EVEN TAKE UR CREDIT CARD DETAILS, THEY SAY THEY WILL EMAIL ME IN 3 DAYS TO INFORM ME ABOUT MY ORDER.............WE'LL JUST HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE
WHY HAVEN'T THEY CALLED IT AVOLVE?..........IS SOMETHING DODGY IS GOING ON :?:
I just find it hard to believe this site is selling dutasteride and Nobody was informed untill now. If it's true then our problems are half over.......The only problem is that they say they do not ship to the UK... ( Then again this could all be a prank )...Lets hope its not.
RecedingBoy
Established Member
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i'm REALLY waiting for dutasteride myself. lets all hope the shitz comez out quickz. Lockless: maybe if you have thinning all over try getting some toppik. i've been on it for 2 weeks and use it everyday now. it helps to thicken things up a bit. can anyone comment on their likes dislikes of thie product? till now its been great for me.
Dutasteride will be out well before your 12 month mark.
I can't believe rogaine/propecia/spironolactone/etc etc hasn't at least somewhat slown down your hairloss.. it just doesn't make sense.
Maybe try upping the proscar dosage? but be aware of side effects.
You may also want to get a blood panel of your hormones and make sure everything is ok.
I can't believe rogaine/propecia/spironolactone/etc etc hasn't at least somewhat slown down your hairloss.. it just doesn't make sense.
Maybe try upping the proscar dosage? but be aware of side effects.
You may also want to get a blood panel of your hormones and make sure everything is ok.
Hairsinger
New Member
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Hello,
Could dutasteride be effective as a topical? Something like Merck is trying with finasteride now.
Could dutasteride be effective as a topical? Something like Merck is trying with finasteride now.
- Reaction score
- 42
For quite some time now, I've been telling people that from my reading of various topical minoxidil studies and finasteride studies, it appears that minoxidil is more effective at stimulating regrowth than finasteride; an obvious question nowadays would be: where does the very long-awaited dutasteride fit into the grand scheme of things? We have some good data from the dutasteride phase II trial, so does it finally surpass what Rogaine can do? I decided to look at the data from every topical minoxidil study in my collection and make an objective comparison! Since the only reported data in the dutasteride trial were the hair-counts, I could only use minoxidil studies that also reported hair-counts, to get any kind of meaningful comparison; and there are exactly six of them in my collection.
I've given the full citations to the studies at the very end of this post, in case anyone wants to double-check my figures and computations. As I'm reporting the numbers for each one, I'll just refer to them as (1) through (6)...again, you can check at the end to see the full reference. The minoxidil studies lasted for varying lengths of time like 4 months, 6 months, and 12 months, while the Glaxo finasteride and dutasteride trial lasted only for six months; to compensate for that, I've specified the actual length of each individual trial, and then calculated the hair-count increase PER MONTH, for fairness. Also, all hair-counts are standardized to the familiar 1-inch circular test spot on the scalp. Ok...all set? Here we go:
(The Glaxo trial of finasteride and dutasteride)
Finasteride... +72 hairs, six months (12.0 hairs/month)
Dutasteride... +108 hairs, six months (18.0 hairs/month)
(All the following are the topical minoxidil studies)
(1) 2% minoxidil... +425 hairs, 12 months (35.4 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +372 hairs, 12 months (31.0 hairs/month)
(2) 2% minoxidil... +273.4 NONVELLUS hairs, 12 months (22.8 hairs/month)
(3) 2% minoxidil... +101 TERMINAL hairs, 13 months (7.8 terminal hairs/month)
(4) 1% minoxidil... +149 hairs, 6 months (24.8 hairs/month)
Also: 2% minoxidil... +175 hairs, 6 months (29.2 hairs/month)
(5) 2% minoxidil... +233.8 hairs, 12 months (19.5 hairs/month)
(6) 2% minoxidil... +151 hairs, 4 months (37.8 hairs/month)
Also: 2% minoxidil... +324 hairs, 12 months (27 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +166 hairs, 4 months (41.5 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +338 hairs, 12 months (28.2 hairs/month)
There you have all the data! Averaging all the topical minoxidil data shows an average hair-count increase of +25.1 hairs per month (for that study #6, I'm using just the 12-month data), whereas dutasteride only managed a hair-count increase of +18.0 hairs per month! Finasteride brings up the rear at only +12.0 hairs per month! Summarizing the data is very simple and elegant: dutasteride generates about 50% more regrowth than finasteride (we've been saying that for a long time), and topical minoxidil generates about 50% more regrowth than dutasteride, according to all these studies! And here's a small but important detail: the minoxidil hair-counts are actually a little UNDERestimated, because the numbers reported for studies #2 and #3 were for nonvellus and terminal hairs, respectively. Factoring in TOTAL hair-counts (which weren't reported in those two studies) would make regrowth from topical minoxidil even more impressive.
Bottom line: as I've been saying for a long time, dutasteride is a fine new addition to our weaponry, but it should be considered a potent agent to inhibit the balding process itself, and not really something that's going to stimulate a lot of extra regrowth. For that, you'll have to use a complete program that addresses all the known angles that we've been talking about, like minoxidil, SODs, etc. By no means is dutasteride all by itself any kind of ultimate "cure" for balding; at least, not if any serious regrowth is one of your goals. But if all you need to do is maintain, then it should be an outstanding new drug for you, even by itself.
Bryan
(1) "Topical Minoxidil in Early Androgenetic Alopecia", Kreindler et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1987;16:718-24.
(2) "Five-Year Follow-Up of Men With Androgenetic Alopecia Treated With Topical Minoxidil", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1990;22:643-6.
(3) "Duration of Minoxidil Therapy to Yield Maximum Benefit", [Letter] Rietschel et al, Arch Dermatol 1988;124:1569-70.
(4) "Dose-Response Study of Topical Minoxidil in Male Pattern Baldness", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 15:30-37, 1986.
(5) "Topical Minoxidil Therapy for Androgenetic Alopecia", Koperski et al, Arch Dermatol 1987;123:1483-1487.
(6) "Topical Minoxidil in Early Male Pattern Baldness", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 13:185-192, 1985.
I've given the full citations to the studies at the very end of this post, in case anyone wants to double-check my figures and computations. As I'm reporting the numbers for each one, I'll just refer to them as (1) through (6)...again, you can check at the end to see the full reference. The minoxidil studies lasted for varying lengths of time like 4 months, 6 months, and 12 months, while the Glaxo finasteride and dutasteride trial lasted only for six months; to compensate for that, I've specified the actual length of each individual trial, and then calculated the hair-count increase PER MONTH, for fairness. Also, all hair-counts are standardized to the familiar 1-inch circular test spot on the scalp. Ok...all set? Here we go:
(The Glaxo trial of finasteride and dutasteride)
Finasteride... +72 hairs, six months (12.0 hairs/month)
Dutasteride... +108 hairs, six months (18.0 hairs/month)
(All the following are the topical minoxidil studies)
(1) 2% minoxidil... +425 hairs, 12 months (35.4 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +372 hairs, 12 months (31.0 hairs/month)
(2) 2% minoxidil... +273.4 NONVELLUS hairs, 12 months (22.8 hairs/month)
(3) 2% minoxidil... +101 TERMINAL hairs, 13 months (7.8 terminal hairs/month)
(4) 1% minoxidil... +149 hairs, 6 months (24.8 hairs/month)
Also: 2% minoxidil... +175 hairs, 6 months (29.2 hairs/month)
(5) 2% minoxidil... +233.8 hairs, 12 months (19.5 hairs/month)
(6) 2% minoxidil... +151 hairs, 4 months (37.8 hairs/month)
Also: 2% minoxidil... +324 hairs, 12 months (27 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +166 hairs, 4 months (41.5 hairs/month)
Also: 3% minoxidil... +338 hairs, 12 months (28.2 hairs/month)
There you have all the data! Averaging all the topical minoxidil data shows an average hair-count increase of +25.1 hairs per month (for that study #6, I'm using just the 12-month data), whereas dutasteride only managed a hair-count increase of +18.0 hairs per month! Finasteride brings up the rear at only +12.0 hairs per month! Summarizing the data is very simple and elegant: dutasteride generates about 50% more regrowth than finasteride (we've been saying that for a long time), and topical minoxidil generates about 50% more regrowth than dutasteride, according to all these studies! And here's a small but important detail: the minoxidil hair-counts are actually a little UNDERestimated, because the numbers reported for studies #2 and #3 were for nonvellus and terminal hairs, respectively. Factoring in TOTAL hair-counts (which weren't reported in those two studies) would make regrowth from topical minoxidil even more impressive.
Bottom line: as I've been saying for a long time, dutasteride is a fine new addition to our weaponry, but it should be considered a potent agent to inhibit the balding process itself, and not really something that's going to stimulate a lot of extra regrowth. For that, you'll have to use a complete program that addresses all the known angles that we've been talking about, like minoxidil, SODs, etc. By no means is dutasteride all by itself any kind of ultimate "cure" for balding; at least, not if any serious regrowth is one of your goals. But if all you need to do is maintain, then it should be an outstanding new drug for you, even by itself.
Bryan
(1) "Topical Minoxidil in Early Androgenetic Alopecia", Kreindler et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1987;16:718-24.
(2) "Five-Year Follow-Up of Men With Androgenetic Alopecia Treated With Topical Minoxidil", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 1990;22:643-6.
(3) "Duration of Minoxidil Therapy to Yield Maximum Benefit", [Letter] Rietschel et al, Arch Dermatol 1988;124:1569-70.
(4) "Dose-Response Study of Topical Minoxidil in Male Pattern Baldness", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 15:30-37, 1986.
(5) "Topical Minoxidil Therapy for Androgenetic Alopecia", Koperski et al, Arch Dermatol 1987;123:1483-1487.
(6) "Topical Minoxidil in Early Male Pattern Baldness", Olsen et al, J Am Acad Dermatol 13:185-192, 1985.
hairybastard
New Member
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Lockless,
Didn't you say that finasteride worked but caused you repeated telogen effluviums? Won't dutasteride just do the same thing to us, if not worse?
Didn't you say that finasteride worked but caused you repeated telogen effluviums? Won't dutasteride just do the same thing to us, if not worse?
RecedingBoy
Established Member
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Guys!, I tried tugging at my hair today and pulled out like 15 hairs. tried it 3 more times and each other time pulled out 10 or so. They were a little lighter than my usual brown hair. they did have bulbs on the end thoughs, and they may have been thinner.
only thing new: 2mg finast for 3 weeks. FNS for 3 weeks now.
Do i have Telogen Effluvium? what should i do ppl! i'm scared shitless now. but does Telogen Effluvium have to be diffuse thinning througout scalp or can it be just in the front hairline? becuase i can only tug lots of hairs from my front hairline part, not from other parts.
i also wanted to know what should i test for in my blood test and should i have a blood test taken. is it a good idea to do so? what should i tell the guy to test for?
THANX
only thing new: 2mg finast for 3 weeks. FNS for 3 weeks now.
Do i have Telogen Effluvium? what should i do ppl! i'm scared shitless now. but does Telogen Effluvium have to be diffuse thinning througout scalp or can it be just in the front hairline? becuase i can only tug lots of hairs from my front hairline part, not from other parts.
i also wanted to know what should i test for in my blood test and should i have a blood test taken. is it a good idea to do so? what should i tell the guy to test for?
THANX
RecedingBoy
Established Member
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i forgot to mention, the other recent change is i haven't used nano shampoo for over a month. i ran out and they're on backorder and i'm waiting. dont' know if these 3 things could cause what i am experiencing since they have occurred only 1 month or less.
To Receding Boy
I wouldn't worry unduly about your loss. Hair 'loss' is not the problem with male pattern baldness. It's that hair not regrowing as thick. Shedding can be caused by a number of things such as new treatments, time of the year, stress, etc. Yes it is possible your balding has just speeded up and the hair will grow back thinner and things are getting worse. But it is also likely that upping Propecia will have caused it. Just got to ride it out...
I have been taking Loniten again for a month now and the typical Loniten sheds have happened again, i.e. can pull out 5 or 6 hairs at a time mainly at hairline but all over really. Loniten does this and the more you take the more it does it. Regrowth does come but you have to be patient.
By the way guys, I haven't used this 'new' Hairlosstalk forum before. I liked the old one! How do you find out a list of all the latest posts that have been sent like you could on the old forum (I think it was done by clicking on 'Posts from Last Day' or something like that)?
I wouldn't worry unduly about your loss. Hair 'loss' is not the problem with male pattern baldness. It's that hair not regrowing as thick. Shedding can be caused by a number of things such as new treatments, time of the year, stress, etc. Yes it is possible your balding has just speeded up and the hair will grow back thinner and things are getting worse. But it is also likely that upping Propecia will have caused it. Just got to ride it out...
I have been taking Loniten again for a month now and the typical Loniten sheds have happened again, i.e. can pull out 5 or 6 hairs at a time mainly at hairline but all over really. Loniten does this and the more you take the more it does it. Regrowth does come but you have to be patient.
By the way guys, I haven't used this 'new' Hairlosstalk forum before. I liked the old one! How do you find out a list of all the latest posts that have been sent like you could on the old forum (I think it was done by clicking on 'Posts from Last Day' or something like that)?
crazydiamond
Member
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hi pete
welcome back. I think the new format will just take a bit of getting used to. On the discussion forum page there is a View Posts Within The last day feature. Good luck with your scar excision.
welcome back. I think the new format will just take a bit of getting used to. On the discussion forum page there is a View Posts Within The last day feature. Good luck with your scar excision.
What do you mean 'no hope'? The only reason they withdrew it is because there isn't much else to say until the sNDA is approved. Remember that the drug already HAS been approved so the safety profile should be consistent. Dutasteride is Glaxo's no.1 projected earner for 2003, higher than any other drug they have (and that is just for BPH). When they release it, they'll want to do it right, and having the sNDA allowed them to market it directly against Proscar and convince doctors to prescribe it. That is the key to the success of this drug.
Gizmo
Established Member
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- 3
.
What I meant was I don't know what I am losing faster, hope or hair.
Nothing seems to be working for me.
Propecia isn’t stopping my hair loss.
Tried a little minoxidil and Nizoral, I do not response to anything in any way.
no shedding, no regrows, no nothing.
Just getting thinner and thinner.
Every one in my surroundings that are loosing their hair and have used spironolactone, minoxidil, Propecia and other I can't remember, keep telling me to give it up.
They say hair loss is one of the things the human kind will never win.
By the way things are going on the top of my head, I’m beginning to believe there is no point.
I don't think anything strong enough can stop the thinning.
I think only dutasteride might.
you know me, Pete, you know how my hair loss gets to me.
What I meant was I don't know what I am losing faster, hope or hair.
Nothing seems to be working for me.
Propecia isn’t stopping my hair loss.
Tried a little minoxidil and Nizoral, I do not response to anything in any way.
no shedding, no regrows, no nothing.
Just getting thinner and thinner.
Every one in my surroundings that are loosing their hair and have used spironolactone, minoxidil, Propecia and other I can't remember, keep telling me to give it up.
They say hair loss is one of the things the human kind will never win.
By the way things are going on the top of my head, I’m beginning to believe there is no point.
I don't think anything strong enough can stop the thinning.
I think only dutasteride might.
you know me, Pete, you know how my hair loss gets to me.
Check out this new study announced at the American Urological Association conference:
EFFECT OF THE DUAL 5a-REDUCTASE INHIBITOR DUTASTERIDE ON ENDOCRINE PARAMETERS
Claus G Roehrborn*, Dallas, TX; Gerald L Andriole, St Louis, MO; Curtis Nickel, Ontario, Canada; Peter Boyle, Milan, Italy
Introduction and Objectives:
Inhibition of the 5a-reductase type II isoenzyme causes a reduction in circulating levels of dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects on other hormones such as testosterone (T) and luteinizing hormone (LH) have not been well characterized. Our objectives were to study the impact of dutasteride (D), a dual inhibitor of 5a-reductase types I and II, on circulating androgenic hormones.
Methods:
Three 2-year multi-center, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies were conducted (n = 4325);D was administered at a dose of 0.5 mg/day. Inclusion criteria were: moderate to severe symptoms (AUA-SI ³ 12); prostate volume ³ 30 ml; PSA ³ 1.5 ng/ml to £ 10.0 ng/ml; and maximum flow rate (Qmax) £ 15 ml/sec. DHT and T were measured in the 3 studies in a subset of the total patient population at baseline, 1, 3, 6, 12, 18 and 24 months and in all patients at baseline, month 12 and 24. LH was measured in all patients in 1 of the 3 studies at months 6, 12, 18 and 24.
Results:
The table shows the median % change from baseline for DHT, T and LH at each timepoint. The overall median%change from baseline in D-treated subjects for DHT at month 24 was -93.7% (SD=17) and for T 19.6% (SD=40); LH increased by 21.2% (SD=161). The decrease in DHT for D-treated subjects was predictable with 97% of the subjects achieving at least a 70% reduction, 95% achieving at least an 80% reduction, and 81% achieving at least a 90% reduction at month 24. The changes in LH and T were small and not regarded as clinically significant.
Conclusions:
The new dual 5a-reductase inhibitor D induces early hormonal changes with a near total reduction in serum DHT as early as 1 month. The overall reduction in DHT is much greater than that usually observed with finasteride (~70%) and is less variable. Serum testosterone increases early and remains constant over the 24-month treatment period.
1 mo
3 mo
6 mo
12 mo
18 mo
24 mo
DHT/D (n=195)
-91 (15)
-92.7 (12)
-93.6 (14)
-94.4 (7)
-94.7 (16)
-94.1 (14)
DHT/Plc (n=195)
9.2 (51)
10.4 (52)
13.0 (48)
4.3 (39)
3.9 (44)
6.1 (60)
T/D (n=195)
18.1 (37)
18.4 (36)
19.3 (36)
22.7 (33)
13.9 (39)
16.1 (38)
T/Plc(n=195)
3.4 (28)
8.1 (27)
5.2 (36)
0.6 (25)
2.7 (27)
5.2 (34)
LH/D (n=770)
NA
NA
11.8 (248)
20.2 (310)
22.6 (57)
21.2 (161)
LH/Plc (n=753)
NA
NA
4.2 (66)
5.1 (110)
9.7 (79)
5.7 (73)
EFFECT OF THE DUAL 5a-REDUCTASE INHIBITOR DUTASTERIDE ON ENDOCRINE PARAMETERS
Claus G Roehrborn*, Dallas, TX; Gerald L Andriole, St Louis, MO; Curtis Nickel, Ontario, Canada; Peter Boyle, Milan, Italy
Introduction and Objectives:
Inhibition of the 5a-reductase type II isoenzyme causes a reduction in circulating levels of dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Effects on other hormones such as testosterone (T) and luteinizing hormone (LH) have not been well characterized. Our objectives were to study the impact of dutasteride (D), a dual inhibitor of 5a-reductase types I and II, on circulating androgenic hormones.
Methods:
Three 2-year multi-center, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies were conducted (n = 4325);D was administered at a dose of 0.5 mg/day. Inclusion criteria were: moderate to severe symptoms (AUA-SI ³ 12); prostate volume ³ 30 ml; PSA ³ 1.5 ng/ml to £ 10.0 ng/ml; and maximum flow rate (Qmax) £ 15 ml/sec. DHT and T were measured in the 3 studies in a subset of the total patient population at baseline, 1, 3, 6, 12, 18 and 24 months and in all patients at baseline, month 12 and 24. LH was measured in all patients in 1 of the 3 studies at months 6, 12, 18 and 24.
Results:
The table shows the median % change from baseline for DHT, T and LH at each timepoint. The overall median%change from baseline in D-treated subjects for DHT at month 24 was -93.7% (SD=17) and for T 19.6% (SD=40); LH increased by 21.2% (SD=161). The decrease in DHT for D-treated subjects was predictable with 97% of the subjects achieving at least a 70% reduction, 95% achieving at least an 80% reduction, and 81% achieving at least a 90% reduction at month 24. The changes in LH and T were small and not regarded as clinically significant.
Conclusions:
The new dual 5a-reductase inhibitor D induces early hormonal changes with a near total reduction in serum DHT as early as 1 month. The overall reduction in DHT is much greater than that usually observed with finasteride (~70%) and is less variable. Serum testosterone increases early and remains constant over the 24-month treatment period.
1 mo
3 mo
6 mo
12 mo
18 mo
24 mo
DHT/D (n=195)
-91 (15)
-92.7 (12)
-93.6 (14)
-94.4 (7)
-94.7 (16)
-94.1 (14)
DHT/Plc (n=195)
9.2 (51)
10.4 (52)
13.0 (48)
4.3 (39)
3.9 (44)
6.1 (60)
T/D (n=195)
18.1 (37)
18.4 (36)
19.3 (36)
22.7 (33)
13.9 (39)
16.1 (38)
T/Plc(n=195)
3.4 (28)
8.1 (27)
5.2 (36)
0.6 (25)
2.7 (27)
5.2 (34)
LH/D (n=770)
NA
NA
11.8 (248)
20.2 (310)
22.6 (57)
21.2 (161)
LH/Plc (n=753)
NA
NA
4.2 (66)
5.1 (110)
9.7 (79)
5.7 (73)
