Dutasteride May Permanently Alter Dht Levels | HairLossTalk Forums

Dutasteride May Permanently Alter Dht Levels

Discussion in 'Hair Loss and Alopecia Published Studies' started by CinnamonRoll, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. CinnamonRoll

    CinnamonRoll Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2017
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    24
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    DHT serum concentrations
    After 24 wk of treatment, suppression of DHT was ob-served with a clear dose-response curve for percent changefrom baseline for the dutasteride treatment groups (Fig. 1).

    Adjusted mean - sd decreases in DHT from baseline for the dutasteride treatment groups were as follows:
    98.4 - 1.2% (5.0 mg);
    97.7 - 2.0% (2.5 mg);
    94.7 - 3.3% (0.5 mg);
    52.9 - 22.1% (0.05 mg); and
    7.5 - 26.6% (0.01 mg).

    Of note is the reduction in variability (sd bars) with increase in dutasteride
    dose. In comparison, the adjusted mean decrease in DHT with finasteride was
    70.8 - 18.3%.
    The percent changes in DHT from baseline for dutasteride doses of 0.5, 2.5, and 5.0
    mg were significantly greater than placebo (P 0.001) and finasteride (P 0.001).

    The percentage of patients with DHT levels less than 10 pg/ml at the end of the 24-wk drug exposure was 10% in the 0.5-mg dutasteride group, 64% in the 2.5-mg dutasteride
    group, and 75% in the 5.0-mg dutasteride group.

    In the finasteride group, no subject had a DHT level less than 10 pg/ml, and only 9% had a DHT level less than 50 pg/ml.

    As the dutasteride dose increased, the variability of the response decreased from a sd of 22.1% with dutasteride at 0.05 mg to
    a sd of 1.2% with dutasteride at 5.0 mg.

    The time courses of the changes in mean percent DHT levels for the different treatment groups during the study are
    shown in Fig. 2.

    Mean percent DHT levels returned to within
    20% of baseline with dutasteride at 0.05 mg and finasteride
    at wk 4 post treatment

    For dutasteride at 0.5 mg at wk
    16 post treatment.

    With the highest doses of dutasteride, 2.5
    and 5.0 mg, the mean percent DHT levels remained suppressed by 85% or more from baseline at 16 wk post treatment.

    https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/89/5/2179/2844345
     
    Arrade and dermrafok like this.
  2. InBeforeTheCure

    InBeforeTheCure Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    828
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Nah, it's just that dutasteride has an extremely long half-life (around five weeks). After the 24 weeks of treatment, the 2.5 mg group had an average dutasteride concentration of 272 ng/mL and an average DHT concentration of 10.2 pg/mL. The 0.5 mg group had an average dutasteride concentration of 38 ng/mL and an average DHT concentration of 23.8 pg/mL.

    After 16 weeks off the drug, the concentration of dutasteride in the 2.5 mg group would be something like:

    C = C0*(1/2)^(t/t1/2), where C is the dutasteride concentration after t weeks, C0 is the concentration when they stopped the treatment, and t1/2 is the half-life of dutasteride (five weeks). So
    C = (272 ng/mL)*(1/2)^(16 weeks/5 weeks)
    = 29.6 ng/mL

    That's slightly less than the 0.5 mg group had after the 24 weeks of treatment (38 ng/mL) and, no surprise, the average concentration of DHT in the 2.5 mg group after 16 weeks off the drug was around the same (slightly higher) than the 0.5 mg group had the moment they stopped treatment.


    dut_graph.png

    So the result is what you would expect given the five week half-life.
     
  3. InBeforeTheCure

    InBeforeTheCure Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2015
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    828
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    You're exactly right. I was responding to OP, not you.

    Not that I know of (maybe someone else does?). I sure wouldn't expect them to be permanently altered though.
     
  4. arnoldd

    arnoldd Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    154
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Hi, i was 1,5 years with finasteride.

    Than i take duta for 10 days 1,5mg (loading dose) and 0,5mg daily for 6 months, than stopped due allergic reaction.

    4 months 3weeks later, the alleric reaction its mild but still present, my hair gradually thinned over time and these last weeks i notice more libido and better erections.

    I have the same opinion, for me its because the long half life, however there are people that feel sexually not recover after finasteride(which has a short life 8 hours). Maybe there is an unknown mecchanism behind. Maybe not..
     
    Japnicks India likes this.
  5. itsjustsimon

    itsjustsimon Experienced Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    611
    Dislikes Received:
    24
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Speaking of broscience...
     
  6. itsjustsimon

    itsjustsimon Experienced Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    611
    Dislikes Received:
    24
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    You’re just throwing those statements as facts and you’re making some pretty bold claims... show me studies of this DHT hypersensitivity, I’m very curious...
     
  7. arnoldd

    arnoldd Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    154
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    I think its quite the opposite of an hypersensitivy looking some guys claiming they dont recover from sexual side effects after quitting the drug
     
  8. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,973
    Likes Received:
    2,891
    Dislikes Received:
    68
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    I very strongly do not believe androgen hypersensitivity or desensitization are real issues. This is my opinion on that issue:

    https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...-about-androgen-receptor-upregulation.110125/

    Probably there are very rare guys who do get permanent problems on these meds, but that may likely represents messing up of their hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis in some way similar to what can happen to guys on steroids.

    It is probably freakishly rare and while that would be unfortunate, most guys will be fine.

    Inbeforethecure explained the main issue here well which is just that dutasteride takes along time to leave the body.
     
    #8 IdealForehead, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  9. dermrafok

    dermrafok Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    487
    Dislikes Received:
    94
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    That's fucking awesome....Finasteride and Dutasteride are poison...
     
    Arrade likes this.
  10. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,973
    Likes Received:
    2,891
    Dislikes Received:
    68
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    You think going bald is better for your general health?

    Balding makes many of us into isolated depressed borderline suicidal shells of our former selves and a lot of guys on here end up turning to alcohol to cope.

    If you're the kind of guy who can just go bald gracefully and not care, maybe that's different. But I would rather "poison" myself with the hairloss drugs I'm using and be happy than stop them and wish my life was over because I can't take watching the horrible decline.
     
  11. dermrafok

    dermrafok Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    487
    Dislikes Received:
    94
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    That's crazy...
     
    Adam12a likes this.
  12. xRedStaRx

    xRedStaRx Established Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    429
    Likes Received:
    44
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    I believe the way they work, and why they give permanent damage has to do with the HPA and progestrone.
     
  13. infinitepain

    infinitepain Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    214
    Dislikes Received:
    48
    In the thread, you mention finasteride reduces "DHT on the scalp by 60%". Where did you get that data from? I have only seen serum measurements. Similarly, you mention "your DHT was not being reduced" but you never measured your scalp DHT which is what matters.

    In any case, im not convinced about basically a rat study. Rats are irrelevant for human male pattern baldness. You are on a massive dose of ARs so I hope it goes ok for you, keep us updated.
     
  14. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,973
    Likes Received:
    2,891
    Dislikes Received:
    68
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    I have taken 2.5 mg dutasteride for weeks and had no reduction in my serum DHT. You can't have scalp reduction of DHT without serum reduction.

    Scalp DHT with finasteride is typically reduced as per

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10495374/

    If androgen receptor upregulation was a big problem in humans we would see hair loss start to rise again on finasteride after a certain amount of time where it really doesn't.

    I am not using 5-ars. I am on topical darolutamide with absolutely no hair loss for months.
     
    dermrafok likes this.
  15. infinitepain

    infinitepain Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    214
    Dislikes Received:
    48
    The idea would be to use topical lotions to avoid systemic rape of DHT, which is why I have always stuck to lotions and never used pills, never had sides, but I cant stop the baldness, im still upping my finasteride foam dose every 6 months or so until I see something (the W&G one, they used up to 2.5% I think.. I have still not reached 1% levels), but I suspect I need something extra, im looking at PRP right now, we got some solid clinics in France, im looking for a combo which will have dutasteride as well, attacking the scalp directly, this should be as good as it gets... why take the pill if the pill works when it gets distributed in the scalp is what im saying. We need alternative ways to deploy the active ingredient within the scalp directly avoiding the liver and therefore getting sides.

    Now your case is pretty damn rare. I would say you lack the genes that break down finasteride/dutasteride to lower DHT, your DHT should be damn low on daily dutasteride, let alone at 2.5mg, you would have had sides guaranteed, but it seems your system is ignoring the drug, it would have shown on your DHT serum levels definitely, you should get the 23andme test done and look for genes involved in that, such as SRD5A2 and many others.

    About the other topic, reducing an enzyme is not the same as attacking the androgen receptor itself, which is why I see finasteride as safer long term than androgen receptor antagonists, but in any case it seems to be working for you long term for some reason. Who knows, you took an insane dose of dutasteride for a year with no impact on your serum DHT, you may be a special case which doesn't develop upregulation when antagonizing the receptors with drugs such as RU or daro... but it's still weird, in general I still see as safer inhibiting enzymes than cronically attacking the receptors.. hopefully the treatments doesn't go boomerang on your ass eventually.
     
  16. arnoldd

    arnoldd Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    154
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Naa..if you took 2,5mg and you didnt have any reduction in serum dht it was clearly fake.

    I quit 7 months ago dutas, i notice a boost in libido and erections and the semen is no more liquid. I took one pill for 6 months prior to 2 years of finasteride..
     
  17. infinitepain

    infinitepain Experienced Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2016
    Messages:
    509
    Likes Received:
    214
    Dislikes Received:
    48
    Well, he claimed that he bought the real thing, from a real pharmacy, so he clearly has some sort of gene that ignores it or something.

    I would have liked to see his result with a topical approach, either lotion or PRP.
     
    dermrafok likes this.
  18. Merica

    Joined:
    May 21, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    9
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    I used finasteride for 17 years with very good results, starting losing at 29, I'm now 48 with a full head. I had to add lllt at the ten year mark because of diminishing returns with finasteride alone. I tried dutasteride but had horrible cognitive sides and had to quit using both. I figured out the cognitive sides were anxiety brought on by the depletion of 5ar. I had that suspicion confirmed by a neuroendrocronologist who deals with post finasteride. I'm a year off both drugs and have improved dramatically, still have some headaches and word issues occasionally but I'm anticipating a full recovery. Thankfully still have a full head tho I switched to Lipogain, Viviscal, lllt and keto. Have to be religious about using the regimen but it works :).
     
  19. itchymadscalp

    itchymadscalp Established Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    234
    Dislikes Received:
    18
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Maybe at first you had no hair loss ... ???
     

Share This Page