Dr. Lee's ( Dr. Bowen ) initial consultation

hairhaircomeagain

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So I mailed Dr. Lee his consultation form to buy his minoxidil. Some highlights from the mail. I am surprised he has asked me to go on 1 application of minoxidil a day and a nightly application of Xandrox15. Is this a regularly suggested regimen ?

Apply all Xandrox formulas as instructed under topic heading APPLICATION OF 5% MINOXIDIL AND/OR 5% XANDROX. In the morning, apply 1 mL of Product Number 500, 5% Minoxidil to all affected areas. In the evening before bedtime, but at least 8 hours later, apply 1 mL of Product Number 940, Xandrox15 to the same affected areas. This is one of the more aggressive regimens meant to treat hair loss refractory to other treatments and to help reverse loss in the difficult to treat frontal and temple areas. See WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT FROM TREATMENT below.

Allow 4 to 6 months of consistent use to see a positive response.

Something interesting about NANO.

I personally have my doubts about the value of NANO shampoo. As much as I admire Dr. Proctor's depth of knowledge and his work, I don't understand how or why NANO shampoo could be beneficial to hair growth. Unless you affect the hair follicle, any treatment for male pattern baldness is going to be cosmetic only, which is the purpose of shampoos.

My advice on shampoos is to use whatever kind makes your hair look good, but every so often switch to another brand because they have different proportions of detergents and conditioners and the prolonged use of any one brand makes the hair less manageable. For hair growth unless the shampoo has ketoconazole, shampoos are irrelevant.

Some answers to my questions....This will be good for some who insist that finasteride has only 2% sides...

Questions:
1. Whats the exact percentage of people who get sides on finasteride.
The side effects are in greater numbers than Merck will admit to. But then, evaluating 'decreased libido' is very subjective. I have conducted a survey with some of my patients and have found that those experiencing side effects is considerably higher than mentioned in the FDA trials. For example, Merck claims only 2% sexual dysfunction. I have found that the percentage is more in the range of 20% to 30%. Also, Merck denies that finasteride causes telogen effluvium. Although the percentage is low, I have had a number of patients complain of telogen effluvium and you will find many examples of finasteride induced telogen effluvium in the hair loss chat groups. That is as “exactâ€￾ as I can come to an answer to your question, but it should suffice.

On use of Top spironolactone, he said I should go on spironolactone only after 6 months...I wonder why...He knows I am not on finasteride

2, Can topical spironolactone be as dangerous and as effective as oral?
I agree that oral spironolactone is a bad idea for men to use to treat hair loss. There can be serious side effects such as an increased potassium level in the blood, feminizing effects (gynecomastia) and loss of libido. On the other hand, topical spironolactone metabolizes rapidly in the skin where it is applied and has no systemic effects. It has three distinct benefits in the treatment of male pattern baldness: (1). It significantly reduces the amount of DHT in the scalp by inhibiting the conversion of precursor steroids to DHT. (2). It reduces the DHT in the scalp by converting localized testosterone into estrogen, which is thought to be protective of the hair follicles. (3). It blocks the follicular androgen receptor sites, thereby rendering any residual or circulating DHT harmless to the hair follicles. Rather than reducing the levels of circulating (serum) DHT by blocking Type 2, 5 alpha reductase enzyme, like finasteride does, it prevents DHT from making a complex with the androgen receptor protein.

I have suggested that you only try spironolactone if you want to enhance your results after 6 or so months of treatment. Xandrox can often be as effective as a combination of minoxidil and spironolactone. The main problem with too many topicals is the hassle involved. You may become discouraged and rather than the 2 applications per day that I am recommending, you may revert to no applications per day.

You will note that I am recommending Xandrox15 for the evening application. Although it has its cosmetic challenges, it is the most effective topical we have. Patients who have not been able to reverse loss with other Xandrox formulas have been able to do so with Xandrox15.

SO What do you guys think...Should I go on the Min and the Xandrox. I was thinking of going on his 5% Min in the morning and Rogaine in the evening..since I have heard that Rogaine is more effective than Dr. Lee's Min
 

beaner

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That is just a "cut and paste" consultation....almost word for word identical to mine. If you want my opinion, order his regular minoxidil if you want something a little less greasy than the commercial brands and stay away from the regular Xandrox because the azelaic acid in it has never truly been proven to be effective against DHT. Otherwise if the grease factor doesn't bother you, you are probably better off going with a cheap generic 5% minoxidil readily available for 7-8 bucks a month.
As far as the Xandrox 15....in my opinion you are better off waiting til the end of June and try his new 12.5% solution if you think you really need a higher strength minoxidil....it will be 21 bucks cheaper for the same amount.
Lastly, if you're concerned since you're not using finasteride then Dr Lee's spironolactone may be a good choice....I would recommend a spironolactone/minoxidil combo over the Xandrox.
 

hairhaircomeagain

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Thanks beaner.

Well I am surely going for his 5% min for morning application and Rogaine for nightly apps.

I see you use the Xandrox. If you think its not that effective, who are you using it. Something better in there ?

BTW...what copper peptides do you use ?
 

Aplunk1

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Very informative post.

I still think you should just get regular 5% minoxidil, finasteride, and Nizoral-- to keep it down to the bare minimum at first. :)
 

beaner

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hairhaircomeagain said:
Thanks beaner.

Well I am surely going for his 5% min for morning application and Rogaine for nightly apps.

I see you use the Xandrox. If you think its not that effective, who are you using it. Something better in there ?

BTW...what copper peptides do you use ?

I'm currently only using the Xandrox 12.5 lotion and that is only for the higher minoxdil content, not the azelaic acid, though I'll admit I did go through a couple bottles of the Xandrox 5% before I decided it was probably useless. For copper peptides my preference is Tricomin, although I bought a bottle of each of the 3 major brands....Tricomin, Folligen, and American Crew for comparison purposes. Tricomin and American Crew supposedly have the same copper peptide formula but I find the sweet smell of American Crew a little too much at times. Folligen has a different formula (different peptides), may possibly be better, but in my opinion is a bit too sticky and leaves your hair kind of crappy.....not to mention the green scalp.
 

Johnny24601

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Dr Lee?

I am trying to make my way through this ever growing information (or misinformation) on hairloss treatments. One thing that confuses me is that so many seem to respect Dr. Lee and use his products yet many of these same people shoot down the effectiveness of Xandrox. However, as part of my consultation with Lee (I know most answers are cut and pasted but) he stressed that Xandrox is highly effective and even said that a combo of Xandrox and minoxidil should do almost as good a job of slowing or stoping DHT effects onthe scalp as finasteride. Any comments would be appreciated?
 

techprof

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After using Dr. Lee's xandrox for nearly two years, I can safely say that azelaic acid is bs.
stick to his minoxidil.
Dr. Lee is the baskin robins of minoxidil. His high concn. minoxidil might work better (note the word might) than 5% minoxidil.

His claims about azelaic acid as good as finasteride is definitely bs and unjustified.
 

SoonSurgery

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Hey there hairhaircomeagain,

Last Friday I mailed the consultation form that Dr. Lee requires prior to ordering his products. I am wondering how quickly he responded back to you before you can start ordering? Did he e-mail you or send you a letter thru snail mail or?

I am looking to use his minoxidil 5% (PPG free) since my current minoxidil 5% (Kirkland) is too greasy for me.

If you can tell me the process with Dr. Lee after you mailed back the consultation form would be much appreciated. I am just trying to figure out the steps.

Thanks in advance, Steve
 

hairhaircomeagain

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I mailed my form on Friday. I was kindaa surprised to see a mail Monday evening...USPS rocks :). Dr. Bowen mailed coz Dr. Lee is vacationing in Europe with all the money he is making from us baldies :). I think you should see a reply Today or tommorow depending on how far you are from California.
 

icon smith

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For hair growth unless the shampoo has ketoconazole, shampoos are irrelevant.
I know the CP sprays have the most benefit, but haven't shampoos containing copper peptides been shown to facilitate regrowth?
 

techprof

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soonsurgery if you want nongreasy get his regular minoxidil (#500).

ppg free minoxidil is more greasy than kirkland and rogaine.
 

SoonSurgery

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Hey there hairhaircomeagain & techprof,

I received Dr. Bowen's suggestions from my consultation today. Dr. Bowen suggested the same products to you as he did with me. He suggested that I order the 500 minoxidil 5% (less greasy that is a big plus for me) in the morning with the Xandrox15 in the evening.

hairhaircomeagain,
Are you going to order the 500 minoxidil 5% and the Xandrox15? Or just one of them? I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Thanks,
Steve
 

hairhaircomeagain

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Afte suggestions from everyone here and seeing the price of Xandrox15 I think they are just trying to sell that expensive product. No one seems to be happy with AA and at the end of June he is comign with the concentrated version of Min ( 12.5%). I will rather use that. I am ordering 5% spironolactone though.

Oh, BTW I mailed Dr. Bowen back about the unhapiness with Xandrox 15. Here is what he wrote back.

Thank you much for the consultation. I have a question. It
> will be very helpful if you can answer that. My friend who tries your
> topicals believes that Xandrox was not useful to him at all. Although he
> swears by minoxidil 500. He uses your spironolactone and he firmly believes that spironolactone 5%
> has given him better performance.

I don't doubt what he says is true. However, the situation applies to him and
may not apply you at all. Some patient respond better to one medicine and others
better to a different medicine.

>
> I want to know youir opinion on this. I am not on Propecia yet and am
> thinking on it. I am not sure if saving hair is worth taking chances with
> that medication. Hence I wanna try spironolactone 5% instead of Xandrox. What do you
> suggest ? I want to get on these ASAP.

I have suggested that you only try spironolactone if you want to enhance your
results after 6 or so months of treatment. Xandrox can often be as effective as
a combination of minoxidil and spironolactone. The main problem with too many
topicals is the hassle involved. You may become discouraged and rather than the
2 applications per day that I am recommending, you may revert to no applications
per day. However, if you want to use spironolactone in lieu of azelaic acid, it
is important to understand that you should also use minoxidil with your
treatment. Drugs such as Azelaic acid, spironolactone and finasteride (Propecia)
protect the follicles from DHT in the scalp but protecting from DHT in the scalp
isn't the whole solution. Even men who have been castrated for treatment of
prostate cancer and have no source of DHT will stop the balding process, but
they do not grow back significant amounts of hair (unless they also use
minoxidil as a hair growth stimulant). That's why a combination of minoxidil and
an anti-androgen is important for growth outside the vertex/crown area.

The efficaciousness of topical spironolactone in decreasing the amount and
action of DHT on the hair follicle is dependent on how much is absorbed into the
scalp and over how long a period of time.

The 2% spironolactone alcohol solution allows for faster and more efficient
absorption. Consequently, the scalp may be rinsed off an hour after
application. The 5% lotion, which allows for slower but more prolonged
absorption, should be left on the scalp after it is applied.

As with any topical medication in lotion form, only those molecules of the
medication adjacent to the skin are absorbed. So, it's a waste of medication to
apply more than a thin film to the scalp. The most convenient method of
application of the 5% lotion would be to apply a small amount to the affected
areas with your fingertips.

If you do not find the lotion cosmetically unacceptable by leaving it on the
scalp over night or for several hours during the day, then an application of 5%
lotion can be more effective than an application of 2% spironolactone solution.

Apply 2% spironolactone 10 minutes before applying minoxidil or Xandrox to keep
minoxidil off the surface of the roll-on dabber. The chemical reaction of
minoxidil with the spironolactone can form an offensive odor on the dabber after
a few hours.

Alternatively, apply 5% spironolactone in the morning or in the evening at bed
time, several minutes after applying minoxidil or Xandrox. The spironolactone
lotion will act as an occlusive cover for minoxidil or Xandrox and consequently
improves the absorption of minoxidil.

If you are allergic to propylene glycol, then you should not use 2%
spironolactone. It has propylene glycol in its liquid base. The 5% lotion is
propylene glycol free.

For the time being use a topical spironolactone concomitant with 5% minoxidil as
instructed above. When the 12.5% minoxidil solution is available, use it in
place of 5% minoxidil.

Regardless of the concentration of minoxidil, it is important to be aware of the
possible side effects:

Side Effects: Patients with any history of heart disease should not use
Xandrox15. Also patients who have a known adverse reaction to minoxidil should
avoid using Xandrox15. Although rare, patients who are sensitive to minoxidil
can experience a rapid heart rate, a drop in blood pressure and water
retention. As a result, they may experience headaches, dizziness, chest pain
and/or edema of the ankles. If that happens, the patients should discontinue any
formulas containing minoxidil. In our experience, these side effects have
occurred in less than 0.1% of patients.

Grow well,

Dr. Thomas A. Bowen
 

hairhaircomeagain

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hmmm..I am wondering if I am allowed to post all this on a public website. I am hoping Dr. Bowen does not mind. Maybe I should stop doing it. Is it illegal or sumthin ?
 

-cj-

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They recommended that I wait to add spironolactone as well. But, Dr. Lee's reasoning was that people get frustrated with so many applications. After I let him know that I don't mind it at all he said this:

"You improve your chances of seeing results with the above regimen."

So I did it.

Check my sig for what I use.
 

hairhaircomeagain

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cj ---> Questions

1. Why Xandrox 5% and not Min 5%??
2. How do you apply both spironolactone 2% and spironolactone 5% at night ?
3. Why no Propecia ??? Sides???
 

Old Baldy

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Dr. Lee said he doesn't see how NANO shampoo can get to the follicles in a shampoo.

Ketoconozole has a molecular weight of 531 and nicotinic acid n-oxide has a molecular weight of 161! :hairy:
 

global

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Old Baldy said:
Dr. Lee said he doesn't see how NANO shampoo can get to the follicles in a shampoo.

Ketoconozole has a molecular weight of 531 and nicotinic acid n-oxide has a molecular weight of 161! :hairy:

So?
 

icon smith

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Old Baldy said:
Dr. Lee said he doesn't see how NANO shampoo can get to the follicles in a shampoo.

Ketoconozole has a molecular weight of 531 and nicotinic acid n-oxide has a molecular weight of 161! :hairy:

Ah ha! That's why I've got Nano particles all over my shower ceiling - it's floating off me head after I put it on!!
 

Old Baldy

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global said:
Old Baldy said:
Dr. Lee said he doesn't see how NANO shampoo can get to the follicles in a shampoo.

Ketoconozole has a molecular weight of 531 and nicotinic acid n-oxide has a molecular weight of 161! :hairy:

So?

Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that, generally, the lower the molecular weight the better the penetration.

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage. ... 4-165.html

Here's a relevent quote from the above link:

Simple formulation approaches that concentrate on the interaction of medicament and vehicle (without modifying significantly the intercellular matrix) start with selecting the correct drug or prodrug from a pharmacological class or congeneric series. Essentially, the molecule should display suitable physicochemical properties for it to translocate quickly across the horny layer. Ideally, it should have a low molar mass (preferably <0.6 kDa), adequate solubility in oil and water (correlating with a low melting point) and a high, optimal partition coefficient. Prodrugs additionally require suitable enzymes in the viable tissues to generate active species. The chemical potential should be maximal (a saturated solution or suspension is used); supersaturated systems further increase permeation. Ion pairs, complex coacervates and eutectic systems have limited potential

Also:

From: Peter H. Proctor - view profile
Date: Wed, Aug 30 2000 12:00 am
Orgotein ( in the US it is FDA-approved for veterinary use ). It has
to be given by injection since it has too high a molecular weight to be
absorbed well. I use several low molecualr weight analogs in our
formulations.

Also:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=low+ ... 1&.intl=us

Here's more:

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=low+ ... 1&.intl=us
 
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