Bryan here is one basic problem with proxiphen. How can you ever know or prove that the SODS are doing anything when it could be minoxidil doing all the growth? Thats the thing with these endless unproven topical treatments. I mean I can stick those same ingredients in with some fatty acids, or grape seed juice, or countless other things and claim its a hairloss treatment but what does it really do without a real study to prove anything?
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By the way,Who the hell is this bryan guy? And who made him this hairloss genius?
hair today gone tomorrow
Senior Member
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Davidoff said:
:shakehead: :shakehead:
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abcdefg said:
Huh? What do you mean, "unproven", and "without a real study"?? Besides Dr. Proctor's own personal experience with topical SODs over many years with many different patients, there is also the little matter of the scientific studies conducted with copper peptides in both humans and rodents a few years back. I've posted those studies several times on all the hairloss sites. Haven't you ever even seen them?? SODs definitely do work to stimulate hair growth. It's been proven in studies.
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Here's an old alt.baldspot post of mine in which I answered someone else who had also challenged me about the scientific evidence showing that SODs work for hair growth. Here's the complete post:
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 02:00:16 GMT, honkguy <honk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >BTW, show me one shred of clinical evidence that SODs grow hair on male pattern baldness
>> >sufferers. Don't pull out the "clinical trials" from ProCyte, either, because
>> >I believe those results about as much as I believe Springhair Tonic works.
>>
>> Why do you feel that way, Mitch? I've previously cited three studies
>> on SODs that were published in a medical journal;
>
>For male pattern baldness? Could you posts the references if you get a chance?
Oops... I goofed. They weren't published in a medical journal, they were published in the book "Dermatologic Research Techniques", CRC Press, 1996. They are three consecutive chapters in the book:
Chapter 16: "Phototrichogram Analysis of Hair Follicle Stimulation: A Pilot Clinical Study with a Peptide-Copper Complex" Ronald E. Trachy, Leonard M. Patt, Gordon M. Duncan, and Bernard Kalis. This was done on *human* subjects with male pattern baldness. Both total and anagen hair density increased significantly (anagen hair: +39%) with the larger topical dose of copper-peptide (glycyl-histidine-lysine-valine-phenyalanine-valine), especially when compared to total and anagen hair density LOSSES in the placebo-treated group.
Chapter 17: "Quantitative Assessment of Peptide-Copper Complex-Induced Hair Follicle Stimulation Using the Fuzzy Rat" Ronald E. Trachy, Hideo Uno, Shelley Packard, and Leonard M. Patt. This was done on rats. Copper peptides significantly stimulated hair growth, compared to vehicle.
Chapter 18: "Evaluation of Telogen Hair Follicle Stimulation Using an In Vivo Model: Results with peptide-Copper Complexes" Ronald E. Trachy, Erika D. Timpe, Irene Dunwiddie, and Leonard M. Patt. This was on mice. Copper peptides significantly stimulated hair growth in mice, compared to vehicle; it also exceeded the growth induced by 2% topical minoxidil, which was also tested.
>> and then there's Dr. Proctor's huge clinical experience with them; and
>> then there's my very own experience with Prox-N (emphasis on SODs,
>> obviously) that I've seen with my own two eyes. Why do YOU have such
>> a problem believing that they work?
>As a SOD user, I actually don't have any problem with believing they work; I'm just
>pointing out these agents, which we all seem to place at least some degree in faith
>in, IMHO fall into HairLossTalk.com's definition of "unproven treatments" (as would Revivogen).
>They don't have the large-scale clinical studies like finasteride and minoxidil to
>support their efficacy- essentially, we're relying on smaller, indirect studies and
>Dr. P's expertise with hair loss agents. FDA-approved treatments, as you well
>know, are scarce in this area, so I really believe we've got to work with a much
>looser definition of "unproven."
Ok. What bothered me was your rather vitriolic response ("Don't pull out the "clinical trials" from ProCyte, either, because I believe those results about as much as I believe Springhair Tonic works"), which suggested to me that you thought that copper peptides for male pattern baldness are absolutely positively nothing but a huge scam and ripoff, rather than just something which is relatively lacking in clinical evidence, at least compared to other things like minoxidil, which has been tested for almost two decades. As long as you don't lump copper peptides in with Springhair Tonic, then I don't have a problem with what you said!
Bryan
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 02:00:16 GMT, honkguy <honk...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >BTW, show me one shred of clinical evidence that SODs grow hair on male pattern baldness
>> >sufferers. Don't pull out the "clinical trials" from ProCyte, either, because
>> >I believe those results about as much as I believe Springhair Tonic works.
>>
>> Why do you feel that way, Mitch? I've previously cited three studies
>> on SODs that were published in a medical journal;
>
>For male pattern baldness? Could you posts the references if you get a chance?
Oops... I goofed. They weren't published in a medical journal, they were published in the book "Dermatologic Research Techniques", CRC Press, 1996. They are three consecutive chapters in the book:
Chapter 16: "Phototrichogram Analysis of Hair Follicle Stimulation: A Pilot Clinical Study with a Peptide-Copper Complex" Ronald E. Trachy, Leonard M. Patt, Gordon M. Duncan, and Bernard Kalis. This was done on *human* subjects with male pattern baldness. Both total and anagen hair density increased significantly (anagen hair: +39%) with the larger topical dose of copper-peptide (glycyl-histidine-lysine-valine-phenyalanine-valine), especially when compared to total and anagen hair density LOSSES in the placebo-treated group.
Chapter 17: "Quantitative Assessment of Peptide-Copper Complex-Induced Hair Follicle Stimulation Using the Fuzzy Rat" Ronald E. Trachy, Hideo Uno, Shelley Packard, and Leonard M. Patt. This was done on rats. Copper peptides significantly stimulated hair growth, compared to vehicle.
Chapter 18: "Evaluation of Telogen Hair Follicle Stimulation Using an In Vivo Model: Results with peptide-Copper Complexes" Ronald E. Trachy, Erika D. Timpe, Irene Dunwiddie, and Leonard M. Patt. This was on mice. Copper peptides significantly stimulated hair growth in mice, compared to vehicle; it also exceeded the growth induced by 2% topical minoxidil, which was also tested.
>> and then there's Dr. Proctor's huge clinical experience with them; and
>> then there's my very own experience with Prox-N (emphasis on SODs,
>> obviously) that I've seen with my own two eyes. Why do YOU have such
>> a problem believing that they work?
>As a SOD user, I actually don't have any problem with believing they work; I'm just
>pointing out these agents, which we all seem to place at least some degree in faith
>in, IMHO fall into HairLossTalk.com's definition of "unproven treatments" (as would Revivogen).
>They don't have the large-scale clinical studies like finasteride and minoxidil to
>support their efficacy- essentially, we're relying on smaller, indirect studies and
>Dr. P's expertise with hair loss agents. FDA-approved treatments, as you well
>know, are scarce in this area, so I really believe we've got to work with a much
>looser definition of "unproven."
Ok. What bothered me was your rather vitriolic response ("Don't pull out the "clinical trials" from ProCyte, either, because I believe those results about as much as I believe Springhair Tonic works"), which suggested to me that you thought that copper peptides for male pattern baldness are absolutely positively nothing but a huge scam and ripoff, rather than just something which is relatively lacking in clinical evidence, at least compared to other things like minoxidil, which has been tested for almost two decades. As long as you don't lump copper peptides in with Springhair Tonic, then I don't have a problem with what you said!
Bryan
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i agreeabcdefg said:
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Pfft! Look whos shaking his head,The biggest dope on this forum, who knows nothing about nothing,The guy who tells fellow forum members his penis size to try and impress them and seek there approval.haha!hair today gone tomorrow said:
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I wouldnt beleive anything proctor puts on his website,The guy is preying on mens insecuritys.He is a low guy for charging so much for minoxidil mixed with snake oil and tricomin.
rusty_y2k2
Established Member
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People are very quick to call things snake oil without any personal experience of the product or it seems any knowledge of their method of action and supporting research...
I haven't used prox-n or any of Dr proctors products, so you won't find me calling it crap or singing it's praises... but the stuff does have solid science behind it.
I haven't used prox-n or any of Dr proctors products, so you won't find me calling it crap or singing it's praises... but the stuff does have solid science behind it.
hair today gone tomorrow
Senior Member
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Davidoff said:
knows nothing about nothing?...you dont even know me so stfu...ur just bitter that you cant get a handle on your hair loss.
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HTGT Atleast i can control my bodyfat. Maybe its all those kebabs your eating? :woot:
hair today gone tomorrow
Senior Member
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Davidoff said:
bodyfat?? wtf dude...im at roughly 10% with abs to show....if u want ill show u pics
not my fault i have more hair than you and a better body lol
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Why would i want to see your pic for you approval seeking f**? Just shut your stupid mouth.Your the dumbest bastard here by miles.