Doctor discusses Finasteride on radio

[Wuffer]

There seem to be a lot of people here lately that are concerned about taking Finasteride, or considering quitting. I would strongly recommend listening to this to help put things into perspective and hopefully it will allow you to make a more informed decision.

If anyone has read my posts here, you will hear that they touch on many of the points I have been trying to make over the last couple months. I feel they verbalize my personal viewpoint on this subject very well!

Dr. Wasserbauer is a hair transplant surgeon who has personally prescribed Propecia to over 5000 patients. She maintains good contact with her patients and has not seen one case of persistent or permanent sexual dysfunction.

From 9:50 to 10:30 is particularly interesting, as this is what I see occurring on this forum over and over again. I hope that when some of you listen to this clip, some of these things start to sink in and you may realize this describes your experiences.

 

[Wuffer]

Thanks for your input, finfighter. You either didn't listen to the clip or chose to ignore the entire point of what they were saying. I don't have an agenda here, but it's clear you do. People can decide for themselves.

Also, it's very clear to everyone that you have mastered the ctrl-c and ctrl-v functions on your keyboard. We are all very impressed by your ability to bold sentences and change their colors. However, you haven't quite demonstrated your ability to engage in constructive, thoughtful discussion with people who don't share your viewpoint. I was hoping to prompt some interesting discussion here.

You are a bright guy; I want to hear from you. Not from your studies.

 

[Clay]

Thanks for your input, finfighter. You either didn't listen to the clip or chose to ignore the entire point of what they were saying. I don't have an agenda here, but it's clear you do. People can decide for themselves.

Also, it's very clear to everyone that you have mastered the ctrl-c and ctrl-v functions on your keyboard. We are all very impressed by your ability to bold sentences and change their colors. However, you haven't quite demonstrated your ability to engage in constructive, thoughtful discussion with people who don't share your viewpoint. I was hoping to prompt some interesting discussion here.

You are a bright guy; I want to hear from you. Not from your studies.

Look, you misunderstand me. I'm not anti Finasteride per se. I do think that most men can tolerate it, but I also believe that it can be a very dangerous drug for many men. Frankly, I just get annoyed with your attitude towards Finasteride. I feel that you are falsely advertising Finasteride, this is very unfair to young men who may be considering the drug.

If someone is interested in finasteride, I'm not going to tell them not to take it, odds are they will be fine, but I'm not going to withold the truth about the dangers of the drug either. I believe that they deserve to know the risks involved. I don't usually go around spreading information about the side effects, except for when you make it out to be an incredibly harmless drug, which it is not, this is very misleading and irresponsible.

You seem like a nice guy and I think that you have good intentions, I just don't think that you realize the damage that you may cause some of these young men.


And I post studies because they are the most reliable guage of facts. I
highlight important parts of the studies, so what? I'm not going to stop that! :mrgreen:

finasteride, you seem to be an incredibly knowledgeable guy, I'm sure you've covered it before, but if you don't mind me asking, what is your current hair situation/history?

I'm about to get into Avodart and honestly, I'm slightly frightened. I'm speaking from a perspective where I'd rather be able to get hard when I'm 30 and bald and in-shape than have a full-head with gyno-shaped b**ch tits. That said, if I had the choice, I'd rather have the 'full' with the former.

 

[Mens Rea]

"Mass hysteria"

"What is sad about this is that its made a cross-over to the mainstream media due to a few questionable studies"


are you joking Wuffer?

I assume this is Dr Rassman?? Your hero.


This radio station has clearly hand-picked this doctor who has clearly an agreeable stance to the message they continue to push.

"When things get put on the internet people think its the word of God"


This is a sick joke if you ask me. You've posted up a cheapass radio broadcast from some "doctor" who just so happens to specialise in hair restoration (not endochronology).


This lady says the odd person (her patient) rings her saying they are having sexual problems. She tells them it probably isn't the propecia. Very responsible Sara. I would LOVE to have a radio conversation with this lady to see if she even understands how finasteride works (in detail).


"FEAR MONGERING"


Wuffer - question for you, have you even read the FDA approval process of Propecia? The terms on which it was approved is based on completely inaccurate description of the drug and what it does.



Yes, it's obvious that some of what they are saying in that they are concerned about the widespead campaign against the drug creating a distorted picture of the risk of permanent side effects. That's well and good but they ignorantly brush over too many serious issues concerning this "subset" of men for me to really respect their opinions or be convinced of their motives. As Dr Andrew Rynne from Ireland said - 1-2% of side effects (or whatever it really is) is completely intolerable given what finasteride is used for.

 

[Wuffer]

Mens rea, it would really reflect well on you if you did a little research before posting such pointless responses.

Also, just for your information, I didn't say any of the things in the audio clip. On the record, neither of those people is me. Stop getting pissed off at me for things someone else said.

If you took two seconds to look, you would have realized that the host is Spencer Kobren. Do a bit of research into who he is and what he does, because it's all on his website.

Hair restoration doctors are absolutely the most knowledgeable about finasteride. They HAVE to be. Patients will ask many questions, and they need to know exactly how the medication works. Don't you think their reputation would be harmed if they were prescribing a drug they believed was harmful? I can guarantee the average hair restoration doctor knows much more about finasteride than the average endocrinologist.

Are you going to claim again that you know 10x as much about hormones as a doctor?

Also, you dispute a very glaring fact here. She said she's prescribed to between 5000 and 7000 patients. She has never had one come back with permanent problems. How can this possibly be ignored?

I believe they are spot on with this interview. I expected many of you to write it off as a joke or maybe even an interview funded by Merck. Let me know what you guys think. It will help a lot of people that are currently uncertain about finasteride make a better decision. You are all very welcome to post your disagreements... I absolutely encourage it. However, please take a few moments to think things over before you start typing.

 

[Mens Rea]

Mens rea, it would really reflect well on you if you did a little research before posting such pointless responses.

Also, just for your information, I didn't say any of the things in the audio clip. On the record, neither of those people is me. Stop getting pissed off at me for things someone else said. .

Ehhhh? Every single quote i said is in that clip. Don't make me go through it again and list every second of each quote but i wrote that post as i was listening to it so there's no debate to be had. All those quotes are valid. Listen again if you don't believe me....

Hair restoration doctors are absolutely the most knowledgeable about finasteride.

Very funny.

Are you going to claim again that you know 10x as much about hormones as a doctor?

The average GP, absolutely. The last three GP's i spoke to about this stuff were intriguied about all of this.

Also, you dispute a very glaring fact here. She said she's prescribed to between 5000 and 7000 patients. She has never had one come back with permanent problems. How can this possibly be ignored?

She said guys have rang her and she's told them it probably wasn't the propecia. She didn't go into any further detail but considering she basically brushed these guys off i care very little about her claims...

I believe they are spot on with this interview. I expected many of you to write it off as a joke or maybe even an interview funded by Merck.

It's nothing to do with MERCK but there is obviously an inherent bias and ignorance in all of this. I shouldn't have to spell it out.

The agenda was clear, really. Another radio clip could be from another broadcast with Dr Crisler and Dr Shippen speaking about finasteride speaking about real cases of PFS.

The only thing i agree with frmo the interview is that most guys can handle finasteride alrite. Nothing new here. The rest stinks of them trying to undermine the voice of guys like us who have legitimately suffered from the drug. If you can't see why this would upset some guys who have had their lives ruined by this drug then you are being pretty calice yourself.

 

[Spanishlad]

There does seem to be a growing negativity towards finasteride on this forum and I can see why a lot of people will be scared to start this drug after reading many of the posts on here.
The incidence of side effects does seem exaggerated we all know that side effects exist but the reality is only around 2% of people get them. Every drug has side effects you have to weigh this up before taking any medication.if you just look at the side effects for asprin they look a lot worse than the sides from finasteride but I don't hear of many people scared to take an asprin.

I have been on finasteride for four years with no problems, many of my friends also use it and none of them have had any problems.
The 1 or 2% of side effects may be intolerable for some if hairloss is considered cosmetic but we all know for many people hairloss is much more than that. Surely thats why many of us are here.

For me personally the benefits far out weight the risks.

 

[Wuffer]

Thanks for your reply, Spanishlad. I completely agree; people write this off as simply a cosmetic problem, and the fact that no amount of side effects should be acceptable to treat it. However, that couldn't be farther from the truth; the effects of hair loss go well beyond the follicles themselves! All of us should understand that fact if anyone! It’s a very acceptable risk. If you have problems, simply come off finasteride and seek some alternative treatments.

I have also personally recommended finasteride to dozens of my friends. 3 decided to start, and all are having a good experience so far. I even recommended it to my father, but I feel he may be a bit too far gone as a NW6!

 

[Mens Rea]

There does seem to be a growing negativity towards finasteride on this forum and I can see why a lot of people will be scared to start this drug after reading many of the posts on here.
The incidence of side effects does seem exaggerated we all know that side effects exist but the reality is only around 2% of people get them. Every drug has side effects you have to weigh this up before taking any medication.if you just look at the side effects for asprin they look a lot worse than the sides from finasteride but I don't hear of many people scared to take an asprin.

Aspin isn't a reductabase inbitior or doesn't change your sex hormones and there isn't a forum dedicated to people who had their life ruined taking aspirin either.

I have been on finasteride for four years with no problems, many of my friends also use it and none of them have had any problems.
The 1 or 2% of side effects may be intolerable for some if hairloss is considered cosmetic but we all know for many people hairloss is much more than that. Surely thats why many of us are here.

For me personally the benefits far out weight the risks.

Yep, most people will be fine. Certainlly for the first few years.

I have to say though - it's easy to say the "benefits" outweigh the "risks" when you've had a good experience. There is a few guys who literally couldn't get out of bed for months and haven't fully recovered even yet, who would obviously disagree. Fact of the matter, everyone who takes finasteride will be biased on their own experiences.

Even doctors will be biased on their own patient's experiences.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. finasteride is a serious drug, works for most, but has a dark side that some unfortunate people experience despite being told they would be fine. Peopel are sprouting up more and more frequently on here having had problems with finasteride and i do expect (Sadly) for this trend on continue, if not accelerate, as the drug's popularity grows..

 

[slurms mackenzie]

finasteride eventually caught up with me, due to the sides, this was after nine years.

Whether or not this was due to a gradual effect of a lack of dht (ie like some reverse puberty) or whether or not my testosterone levels dropped with age to such an extent that the sides became noticeable i don't know.

Would i personally do it all the same way again? Hell yeah, when i was 26 first taking it i was like a dog with two dicks, it probably took me down to behaving like a dog with 1.5 dicks, if anything it made life easier, plenty of wood, and a couple of good relationships in the first five years of taking it.

I'd point out too anybody considering taking it

i) that most people don't get the common sides reported and it's a very effective drug.

ii) You will hear more on the forums from the people who have had sides because they're checking back in to find something else that will do the job and we *all* have to be very careful about confirmation bias.

iii) There can be very real long lasting damage done by this drug, it's not likely to happen to you, if i were to do it all again with hindsight i'd take a month off every two years to evaluate how my hormones were holding up.

 

[slurms mackenzie]

The truth is somewhere in the middle. finasteride is a serious drug, works for most, but has a dark side that some unfortunate people experience despite being told they would be fine. Peopel are sprouting up more and more frequently on here having had problems with finasteride and i do expect (Sadly) for this trend on continue, if not accelerate, as the drug's popularity grows..

I think it's would take a lifetime to truly evaluate the effects of finasteride, I don't think we'll ever find out as it'll be replaced by a superior treatment.

I'm sure we still don't understand everything about the contraceptive pill (femal) and long term huge scale studies have been going on with that for years.

An independent 10 year test would yield some interesting results i think, but then maybe i'm biased.

 

[Wuffer]

Aspin isn't a reductabase inbitior or doesn't change your sex hormones and there isn't a forum dedicated to people who had their life ruined taking aspirin either.

This is very true. NSAID's are linked to erectile dysfunction in a very significant amount of men; much more significant an amount than claiming it from Finasteride. This is potentially tens of thousands of men, if not hundreds of thousands. In my opinion, based on the evidence, I would much rather take Finasteride than NSAID's. However, we all take them without a second thought.

I have an other interesting topic. Have you ever investigated SSRI inhibitors? Over 10% of SSRI users experience sexual side effects, and it has been estimated that as much at 1% of ALL SSRI users experience persistent sexual side effects after quitting the medication. This is also potentially tens of thousands of men. This is a good example, because these side effects have been confirmed by medical studies.

However, where are the message boards? Where is all the outrage? I would figure it should be much, much worse than from Finasteride.

Because we hear the negatives about finasteride constantly, we assume it's a much worse situation and much more dangerous than both of those drugs. But when we examine the magnitude of what NSAID's and SSRI Inhibitors can cause, why does everyone still focus on Finasteride and why does it continue to make headlines?

 

[Wuffer]

Good point, chugalot.

Even as a finasteride proponent, I wouldn't consider taking this into my 50's and beyond. We know that in some men, it can shift the hormone balance in favor of estrogen. Going into older age, we all experience this same shift due to a number of causes. It is very possible that taking it for a long period can exacerbate this effect in some guys. I fully agree; regular hormonal workups are important. Definitely get a test before you start, a few months after, and every year or so after that.

Everyone who is considring starting finasteride now is in a great situation. I don't think any of us will have to face the fact that we will be on this for the rest of our lives. I would say 5 years max, until a superior treatment comes out.

We know this medication alters hormones. Becuase of this, it is important to stay healthy to mitigate the risks. Since starting finasteride, I have quit drinking (during the week), started exercising 6 times a week, and started eating a healthier diet. I feel so much better than I did 3 months ago, words can't even express.

Exercise alone does so much to regulate hormones. It also allows your body to use them much more effectively, and to stimulate testosterone production.

There are thousands of 'young' drugs out there. Nobody understands the long-term risks of any of them. Will that stop you from taking it, even though the benefits are clear?

That's up to you.

 

[Mens Rea]

Delete

 

[Mens Rea]

This is very true. NSAID's are linked to erectile dysfunction in a very significant amount of men; much more significant an amount than claiming it from Finasteride. This is potentially tens of thousands of men, if not hundreds of thousands. In my opinion, based on the evidence, I would much rather take Finasteride than NSAID's. However, we all take them without a second thought.

Yeah, but the difference is we don't take aspirin every day for the rest of our lives. That's surely very relevant.

I have an other interesting topic. Have you ever investigated SSRI inhibitors? Over 10% of SSRI users experience sexual side effects, and it has been estimated that as much at 1% of ALL SSRI users experience persistent sexual side effects after quitting the medication. This is also potentially tens of thousands of men. This is a good example, because these side effects have been confirmed by medical studies.

However, where are the message boards? Where is all the outrage? I would figure it should be much, much worse than from Finasteride.

There is plenty of outrage about SSRI related drugs. Those drugs are up there with finasteride and dutasteride as far as im concerned.

Because we hear the negatives about finasteride constantly, we assume it's a much worse situation and much more dangerous than both of those drugs. But when we examine the magnitude of what NSAID's and SSRI Inhibitors can cause, why does everyone still focus on Finasteride and why does it continue to make headlines?

Don't know, possibly because people take finasteride for different reasons than they take these other drugs.

Accutane is a dirt drug too, very similar to finasteride. It too could do with more widespread information. I don't think one cause is less serious than the other, but we're talking about finasteride. I would advise anyone of these other drugs, too.

 

[Orion]

Because we hear the negatives about finasteride constantly, we assume it's a much worse situation and much more dangerous than both of those drugs. But when we examine the magnitude of what NSAID's and SSRI Inhibitors can cause, why does everyone still focus on Finasteride and why does it continue to make headlines?

True.

Just like other drugs, there are risks associated with finasteride, and I do think they are overexaggerated.. the chance of having permanent sides is really low, and I'm not convinced that all those people experiencing permanent sides are actually caused by finasteride. I think psychology has a lot to do with it - now that I think about it (I'm not on any hair loss treatments), I've been having reduced libido myself lately, and have had issues 'getting it up' sometimes. I'm 23 and usually don't have that problem, but I guess it's just a phase from stress. These effects are magnified if you're actually on a drug, and you perceive them to be because of the drug itself, which is not exactly accurate.

These studies on finasteride need to focus on CAUSE AND EFFECT, instead of focusing on simply surveying men who take the drug, leaving a lot of biases and flaws in the experiment intact. That is NOT science. Propeciahelp.com is far from scientific as well.

 

[Mens Rea]

True.

Just like other drugs, there are risks associated with finasteride, and I do think they are overexaggerated.. the chance of having permanent sides is really low, and I'm not convinced that all those people experiencing permanent sides are actually caused by finasteride. I think psychology has a lot to do with it - now that I think about it (I'm not on any hair loss treatments), I've been having reduced libido myself lately, and have had issues 'getting it up' sometimes. I'm 23 and usually don't have that problem, but I guess it's just a phase from stress. These effects are magnified if you're actually on a drug, and you perceive them to be because of the drug itself, which is not exactly accurate.

Keep an eye on those issues (obviously don't stress yourself out) but really - you shouldnt be having any sexual problems at a young age. Don't ignore them like i did, they can get worse....

These studies on finasteride need to focus on CAUSE AND EFFECT, instead of focusing on simply surveying men who take the drug, leaving a lot of biases and flaws in the experiment intact. That is NOT science. Propeciahelp.com is far from scientific as well.

Obviously things are in the early stages. finasteride is a new(ish) drug on the grand scheme of things. All things evolve in this way.

 

[Wuffer]

Orion said he wasn't on finasteride, so i'm doubtful it's causing his loss of libido

But he's right. Every normal guy goes through phases like that. I went through it actually around the same time, in my early 20's. I would go as far to say it's perfectly normal for a guy to have libido issues at regular times in his life. Just because they happen to occur while you are on a certain medication doesn't always mean it has caused it.

It's a young-ish drug. More studies are needed, absolutely. You're right too: Cause and effect is whats needed right now.

Finfighter posted I think 10 studies currently underway about Finasteride. I would hope that if there is a legitimate issue here, that one of those studies will uncover it and give us a little bit more insight. But as of right now, we don't have anything like that.

 

[Orion]

Keep an eye on those issues (obviously don't stress yourself out) but really - you shouldnt be having any sexual problems at a young age. Don't ignore them like i did, they can get worse....

Yes, like Wuffer said, I'm not on finasteride, but Im experiencing some reduced libido right now. I'm just trying to make a point that psychology can play a role in people's symptoms.

 

[cristi2011]

finasteride's side effects are exagerated.
After all, DHT is not completely reduced by it.
Then, DHT really plays a major role at puberty. As you age, DHT begins to make you more harm than good ( think at prostate problems, even cancer).
And, asa a last, i think testosterone is all that matters. And T even may be increased by finasteride.
I personally take finasteride.
It is said it reduces libido: quite false, it may be, a bit, and, so what?? Having sex every day is your only goal in life? Come on! I'd prefer a full head of hair than being extra-mega-super horny every minute. And, with a bald head, the libido is good for what??
It is said it makes semen watery. This is ridiculous, who analyses that?(maybe the ones who jack off every day). And, so what??
It is said you may gain weight: nothing more false(At me), in fact, i lost some weight.
It is said it produces depression, anxiety, etc. False again: i actually have less anxiety after finasteride, and i am more calm: before, i used to get nervous and overreact for minor upsets, now i don't.
And finasteride is not a new drug at all. In the form of proscar, it's been available for nearly 20 years! If there were real problems with it, they would have come out in two decades, don't you think?? And there are tens of millions men who took it. Even if, let's say, 10 of them remained with permanent sexual disfunction(and i don;t think there are even 10), it's an insignifiant minority!
You have more chances to die in a car crash in a year, than to be in those 10 out of 10 million!!
The reason for this over-obsession with finasteride sides are forums like these. Where, as it was noted many times, there are way more people who complain. This is the human nature. Someone who has results from finasteride and no problems gets on with his life and may never come back here.
And you don't know who are the people here. Some of them simply have too much fear in doing something because they heard on a forum it may have side effects. It's their nature: they are over prudent in any aspect in their life. They only read 1 single person had problems, and they are convinced for life: they can't take finasteride!
I was even shocked to read here that some user(doesn't mater who), was taking extasy along with finasteride, but blamed finasteride for his problems, and said that finasteride didn't let him "enjoy the drug". Come on, would you give 2 pennies in the stuff this kind of person writes here?? You can't how how many people like these are on a forum. That's why it's not a good idea to make decisions based on what you read on forums!
And come on, i have read here people saying that minoxidil reduced their libido!