Do you believe in reincarnation?

[optimus prime]

How do you explain things like all of us coming from Adam and Eve, Noah's ark and the world being made in 6 days all of which are scientificly impossible?

Dude, even scientists cannot work out 99% of the world around them. Does that mean the world around them does not exist.

Science is based on theories and beliefs in the same was religion is.

 

[s.a.f]

Science is based more on proof and facts, I'll take those over stories and beliefs anyday.

 

[GeminiX]

I respect that you believe what you are saying, but my view on what you consider to be evidence and fact is that it is simply entertaining fiction or misunderstood science; nothing there is scientifically verifiable and there are *huge* leaps of faith required to fill in the blanks.

I believe in empirical evidence and if I don't understand something I either try to find out what it is, or simply accept it as something I don't understand; I don't need to assume it's the work of a supernatural being, it's just something I can't yet explain.

Don't forget that I had a very strict Welsh baptist upbringing, I even believed in the old testament for many years until I started to question things; sadly religion has brought nothing but suffering to me and my family, but I understand why many people need it.

 

[GeminiX]

It's just a book, it's not evidence of anything; it represents no more proof of the supernatural than Lord of the Rings is proof of the existence of Hobbits

 

[GeminiX]

Yes I did, but it's still not evidence and fact, people can say *anything*, and many people will believe what they say too, as humans it's what we do.

People of faith will take that as absolute evidence and it boosts their faith. I prefer to question things a bit more and look for something which can be verified.

You need to understand that I'm *perfectly* happy with my lack of faith, I have no need to keep testing it. Unless actual evidence shows up, I simply don't want to waste my time.

I respect that you believe what you believe, but you don't need to keep trying to convert me.

 

[GeminiX]

People can say anything that's true, but how can they speak in languages that they don't have any background in, even dead languages like Latin?

I don't think the "converting me" thing came over the way it was intended.

As for the girl, well I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened. There are many gaps in the facts from what I've read, and a lot of people filling them with what wanted people to hear.

Unknown hospitals, unknown drugs, unsure whether she was taking them or not, might have been schizophrenia etc. It makes the whole account far too unreliable to be taken as anything other than a bit of a mystery and in no way stands as proof of anything supernatural.

I feel like I'm repeating myself quite a bit here, so to summarise; unless I'm presented with hard verifiable proof, of which none currently exists, then I have no reason to reconsider my views of the world and will focus my efforts on something more meaningful to me.

I'm happy that many people want to believe in mystical stuff, and as long as they they don't try to claim some sort of privilege for their belief and follow the same rules as everyone else than that's fine and I respect that.

That's pretty much it for me

 

[GeminiX]

Are you sure about the speaking in seven languages thing?; just out of curiosity that sounds interesting.

Everything I can find and read about what actually happened though is that she just complained about seeing "demon faces" and having hallucinations, nothing about becoming a multi-linguist beyond some fanciful forum posts. The actual documented accounts actually do seem to point strongly toward schizophrenia / multiple personality disorder.

I've looked at some of the videos and audio clips on the net, but they are just hoaxes lifted from the soundtrack of The Exorcist.

 

[GeminiX]

Are you sure about the speaking in seven languages thing?; just out of curiosity that sounds interesting.

Everything I can find and read about what actually happened though is that she just complained about seeing "demon faces" and having hallucinations, nothing about becoming a multi-linguist beyond some fanciful forum posts. The actual documented accounts actually do seem to point strongly toward schizophrenia / multiple personality disorder.

I've looked at some of the videos and audio clips on the net, but they are just hoaxes lifted from the soundtrack of The Exorcist.

There are real recordings available, and she did speak in seven different languages, she died during the last exorcism, a lot more happened to her than seeing spooky faces! All of this was very well documented because of her death, she also spoke in different voices at the same time, as if two different people were speaking, she stop eating and would eat spiders and bugs instead, she gained an unusual strengh, and she did speak many languages including latin. There is a lot of information about it online.

I can find dubious posts, but no actual evidence. And as for the behaviour of eating bugs, dead birds and faeces etc., well that's not proof of anything other than she was a very ill little girl.

It's a huge leap to claim that any of it proves the existence of the supernatural.

 

[GeminiX]

You can't explain how someone would have knowledge of the unknown without a supernatural intervention. And speaking in many unknown languages is an example of this. Keep in mind that we are only speaking of one case, out of thousands!

But there's the problem, there appears to be *NO* hard proof that any of this happened the way you believe, just anecdotes and internet posts from people, many of who are far from impartial. All the documented accounts just mention the bizarre behaviour, hallucinations and convulsions.

Also, you can't keep filling in blanks in our knowledge by saying things like "I can't explain what happened, so it must be proof of the supernatural" or whatever, and that's exactly what you're doing right there.

I believe in solid repeatable evidence and science, simple as that

 

[GeminiX]

No thanks, unless you have links to the undeniable evidence you've found, then I'm done. I'm certainly not going to waste more of my time reading a book which appears to have been nothing more than a clever idea to sell a film script.

I've humoured this enough, I have to go back to reality now

 

[GeminiX]

You're going back to reality huh? I know many highly esteemed people who have actually witnessed manifestations of evil apparitions, some of them are Prominent Doctors, do you think that I'm a lier, or a lunatic?

Neither, a lot of people have faith which is not based on any evidence. It does not mean they are liars and lunatics. My own beliefs are not really that different, I believe, for example, that if I jump off the roof of my house, it will probably hurt and I will be injured; I don't need to test that for myself to accept it. The only difference is the criteria required for me to have that belief.

I've had experiences myself which many would consider supernatural; I wrote the novella "The Tycoch Haunting". I simply accept that I don't fully understand what happened that summer.

As I keep saying, I respect that you believe what you do; my views are just different and require evidence or good reason to change.

 

[GeminiX]

I've had experiences myself which many would consider supernatural; I wrote the novella "The Tycoch Haunting". I simply accept that I don't fully understand what happened that summer.

What happened with that?

It depends on perspective really, on the face of it, it could be classed as a classic poltergeist experience. We had window frames bursting into flames, reflections of people standing behind you in mirrors; faces appearing around open doors, smoky shapes in the corners of rooms, weird chills, bumps, grabbed from behind, psychic abilities, furniture breaking itself and even an exorcism of the house from two priests.

It was a terrifying experience for the few of us there.

As it happens I found a few copies of it in my attic when I moved last year; I've been meaning to scan it and post it to my site (the original disk was on an Amiga, I don't think I can still access it).

 

[GeminiX]

Yes lived there through a summer with a friend, things seemed to quieten down for a while after the priests visited, but then a couple of things happened and we left, my friend a few weeks before me.

I remember my last night there vividly, I was sitting in the living room in tears because I was desperate to get out of the house but I was too scared to leave the room because of the *thing* that was in the hall.

I was such a Wendy

 

[GeminiX]

It depends on perspective really, on the face of it, it could be classed as a classic poltergeist experience. We had window frames bursting into flames, reflections of people standing behind you in mirrors; faces appearing around open doors, smoky shapes in the corners of rooms, weird chills, bumps, grabbed from behind, psychic abilities, furniture breaking itself and even an exorcism of the house from two priests.It was a terrifying experience for the few of us there.

And you would not characterise that as supernatural?

At the time that's exactly what I thought, but in hind-site I'm sure most of it was simply hysteria. I would give anything to go back though the experience now, in a far more balanced psychological state than I was at the time. Especially the part when the house started growling at us and slugs came out of the walls

 

[GeminiX]

Yes lived there through a summer with a friend, things seemed to quieten down for a while after the priests visited, but then a couple of things happened and we left, my friend a few weeks before me.

I remember my last night there vividly, I was sitting in the living room in tears because I was desperate to get out of the house but I was too scared to leave the room because of the *thing* that was in the hall.

I was such a Wendy

When did that happen? Did you see figures, that were dark and undefined like a silhouette of a man, with an undefined face?

It all happened in 1991 as I recall, I don't think I saw anything on my final night there, just a paralysing terror and thinking I could hear something coming down the stairs and then shuffling around and moving outside the living room door.

I really must get my little story scanned, it will make a great addition to my site though it might also make me sound like a loon lol

 

[GeminiX]

You said that windows busted into flames? And furniture broke on its own? And you were actually grabbed?

Indeed, Deborah and I were in the kitchen cleaning up after lunch when suddenly the temperature in the room dropped and the window frame started smoking and then flames sprung up from the wood.

During the exorcism an old cabinet fell forwards onto the floor, both it's doors opening as it fell (there was no-one in the room).

And the grabbing was the first thing to happen, in a dark room when I was putting in light bulbs just after moving in.

 

[GeminiX]

The property had had a string of residents which only stayed for a short time prior to my taking on the lease, the incidents began pretty much on day one as I recall.

The neighbours said that some years ago there were members of some sort of cult living there and there were "weird" parties all night.

 

[GeminiX]

The neighbours said that some years ago there were members of some sort of cult living there and there were "weird" parties all night.

I knew it, you will notice a trend when these types of things take place, there was someone who did something to bringout this evil activity, it's usually people involved in witch craft or the occult. This type of behavior often will attract demonic activity, there is information about this in the bible.

I know many people who I strongly trust, who have experienced things similar to this.


This does demonstrate that their are real demonic forces as the bible teachs, and if there are real demonic forces then surely the rest of what the bible outlines must be true as well.

After experiencing such things yourself, how can you say that the supernatural doesn't exist?

You can't make that huge leap based purely on the snippets I posted here.

There are many rational explanations for pretty much everything which I experienced, none of which require a belief in the supernatural.

A bonfire in a neighbours garden with embers settling on the dry window frame, religious neighbours who see a costume party as cultist activity, bad lighting, lots of people coming and going because the house is in a university area and has seasonal residents, creaking floor boards, a breeze, paranoia and my psychological condition at the time etc.

I'm still going to scan my book though, maybe Hollywood want a copy

 

[GeminiX]

I'm still going to scan my book though, maybe Hollywood want a copy

But honestly can you say with absolute certainty that it was not a super natural occurrence? How long is your book, BTW?

I am absolutely certain that nothing which I experienced is due to anything supernatural, though at the time I thought it was something far scarier and demonic. While there are some things which I am unable to easily explain, it's likely that my judgement was impaired due to my emotional state at the time.

My novella is not long, more a short story than a book.

 

[GeminiX]

Not all of the things which happened there happened to me, some were experienced by Deborah.

It was a very distressing time, and I was already in a bad place to begin with.

Our neighbours who claimed to see cultist activity were also devout born again Christians (they organised the exorcism).

Given those conditions, memories become confused and blurred. A twitch becomes an imagined grab, a party with costumes becomes cultist activity, students regularly moving in and out become people moving out because of fear etc. etc.

As I said, I'm completely happy that nothing supernatural in any way was responsible, despite the best efforts of the opportunist religious folk at the time seizing the opportunity to try to add a frightened, vulnerable and ill person to their flock.

I really have to get back to work now, my morning is slipping away and I have lots to do