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Just wanted to know how good hair transplants work on men with diffuse thinning all over the head. Is there any hope?
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Yep. There can be shock loss sometimes by placing hairs in areas where there are still some hairs around but drugs like Avodart and Propecia can help stop the shock loss. If the drugs are keeping the hairs healthy then if they fall out they will most likely come back, so it';s not as much of a concern as you think.
Check out this guy's results from Armani for example:
Before:
After:
He was clearly diffuse before and now look at his hair. Oh man.
Check out this guy's results from Armani for example:
Before:
After:
He was clearly diffuse before and now look at his hair. Oh man.
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These results LOOK good, but this may be an illusion. The first pic was taken under very bright light and the hair is wet. The second one was taken from a different angle with longer hair. Makes me suspicious. :wink:
Young guys w/ aggressive diffuse thinning are at the highest risk for a bad result down the road. Some docs won't even touch a young guy with really aggressive hairloss until they have stabilized things for a year or more w/ drugs. Can the results be minimized w/ dutasteride and/or other drugs? Sure. But just be aware that the risk is much higher for a bad result than w/ someone who has stabilized their hairloss for 5-10 years or more.
Good point Taugenichts, pics taken w/ flash of the top tend to make the scalp less dense, while pics taken with flash from eye level tend to make things more dense. So the pic before looks worse than it actually is, and the pic after looks better than it actually is. Jotronic showed pretty good examples of this.
haleystudios
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Taughenticts and dave one....
Nope.... i thought that too... but i saw Jeff in person.... (the guy in the picture) he let me mangle his hair.. it looks FUC#ING UNBELIEVABLE.... i couldnt believe it so i had to meet him.... anyway i agree with you Jayman... good point...
Shane told me that i can expect results like Jeff becuase of little thinning, donor (graft request), nothing medical wrong with me far as scar tissue, or steroid use... so wel will see. i am gettin original density back in zones 1,2,3 and 4.... my whole head and that will be 6000-7000 grafts at 90-100 grafts cm/2.... Jeff in the pictures is at 90 cm/2
Nope.... i thought that too... but i saw Jeff in person.... (the guy in the picture) he let me mangle his hair.. it looks FUC#ING UNBELIEVABLE.... i couldnt believe it so i had to meet him.... anyway i agree with you Jayman... good point...
Shane told me that i can expect results like Jeff becuase of little thinning, donor (graft request), nothing medical wrong with me far as scar tissue, or steroid use... so wel will see. i am gettin original density back in zones 1,2,3 and 4.... my whole head and that will be 6000-7000 grafts at 90-100 grafts cm/2.... Jeff in the pictures is at 90 cm/2
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Is he 90 cm/2 all over or just in the front?
dirtrider67
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so what do you do when the rest of the original hairs fall out and you've used up all your donar? then you'll be back to being a difusse thinner. also, is it safe to pack the grafts in to 90-100 cm2? i thought the most one could do and be safe about it was 60cm2?
Dense packing at higher levels risks yield. A non-balding look can be achieved with as little as 40-45 grafts/cm2. A lot depends on hair caliber as well. But the more you dense pack, the more you risk not only yield, but also the ridging effect from stuffing too many grafts into a small area.
Don't believe it happens? I've seen it in "ultra fine follicular unit" transplants done as recent as a year ago. So, in fact while you think you are getting great coverage, you could be in fact losing a good percentage of the grafts, thus basically wasting your money and creating more problems than you bargained for.
Don't believe it happens? I've seen it in "ultra fine follicular unit" transplants done as recent as a year ago. So, in fact while you think you are getting great coverage, you could be in fact losing a good percentage of the grafts, thus basically wasting your money and creating more problems than you bargained for.
dirtrider67
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DaveOne said:
DAVEONE: you seem to know alot about this stuff. i got 1471 grafts in 42 sq cm. do you think this will be enough to eliminate the bald look. will i have a diffuse thinning look? what's your thoughts? it's been 3 months and i have a lot of growth but it looks more diffuse at this point.
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dirtrider67 said:
well simple math gives you 35 fu's per cm, and since balding is visible when the hair is 50 fu/cm, I am not optimistic. but what do i know. i'm a diffuse thinner and i estimate that i have 50 fu/cm in front, and people can tell. so if you're getting 2/3rds of my density, i don't see how they couldn't.
haleystudios
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dirtrider67,
the guy in the pic is 90 in the front and thinner in the back, not sure how much thinner, but thats what he told me..
Jayman is right, good post
Daveone...? original hairs.... do you mean in the future or as of right after a transplant...... If you are halted becuase of meds..... 98% of shockloss will grow back..... but i am sorry.... i am not having aweakass looking hair with 30grafts cm/2 in the front or even 50 cm/2....
and if Armani states that the old method of 8000 grafts in the past is gone and new techniques of fuss and fue combo of 10,000-15,000 grafts extraction is possible, then that sounds fine to me......
the guy in the pic is 90 in the front and thinner in the back, not sure how much thinner, but thats what he told me..
Jayman is right, good post
Daveone...? original hairs.... do you mean in the future or as of right after a transplant...... If you are halted becuase of meds..... 98% of shockloss will grow back..... but i am sorry.... i am not having aweakass looking hair with 30grafts cm/2 in the front or even 50 cm/2....
and if Armani states that the old method of 8000 grafts in the past is gone and new techniques of fuss and fue combo of 10,000-15,000 grafts extraction is possible, then that sounds fine to me......
Not sure where you got the 98% from.
As far as planting at 90 in the hairline, my main point was this will risk yield if attempted in one pass. I believe after about 40 g/cm2 the yield gets noticeably compromised. Pushing it up to 90 in one pass can severely compromise blood supply to the grafts. If it works it can look great, but it's a huge risk. BigKaush and Parable come to mind. Better to go lower and maximize yield, then go for another pass if you want to beef it up (assuming you have enough donor and you're not headed for nw6'ville). In the hands of the right Doctor w/ the right techniques a lower number can achieve an non see-through look.
And as far as the 10-15k grafts, it's not a reality yet, so best not to count on it. Fact is, showcase guys with good donor density like Bobman could probably squeeze out another 1500-2k grafts via FUE and get that number up to 10k w/out getting too thin in the donor, but many guys don't have more than 4-6k to give up. Like he said, it's "possible" but not for everyone. It's all down to individual characteristics, and I would not advise anyone to assume that they have 10-15k grafts to give, when in reality they might only have 5 or 6k, even less in some cases. And if their hair caliber is thin, then 6k grafts will look like 3k anyway.
As far as planting at 90 in the hairline, my main point was this will risk yield if attempted in one pass. I believe after about 40 g/cm2 the yield gets noticeably compromised. Pushing it up to 90 in one pass can severely compromise blood supply to the grafts. If it works it can look great, but it's a huge risk. BigKaush and Parable come to mind. Better to go lower and maximize yield, then go for another pass if you want to beef it up (assuming you have enough donor and you're not headed for nw6'ville). In the hands of the right Doctor w/ the right techniques a lower number can achieve an non see-through look.
And as far as the 10-15k grafts, it's not a reality yet, so best not to count on it. Fact is, showcase guys with good donor density like Bobman could probably squeeze out another 1500-2k grafts via FUE and get that number up to 10k w/out getting too thin in the donor, but many guys don't have more than 4-6k to give up. Like he said, it's "possible" but not for everyone. It's all down to individual characteristics, and I would not advise anyone to assume that they have 10-15k grafts to give, when in reality they might only have 5 or 6k, even less in some cases. And if their hair caliber is thin, then 6k grafts will look like 3k anyway.
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dave,
why not plant one-hair grafts in the hairline at 70fi/cm, and then it can go down from there when it moves backwards, to 50, 40, and 30 in the crown?
Thinning is visible at 50 fu/cm I think so I am unsure why you think that planting at 40/cm will not be noticeable?
why not plant one-hair grafts in the hairline at 70fi/cm, and then it can go down from there when it moves backwards, to 50, 40, and 30 in the crown?
Thinning is visible at 50 fu/cm I think so I am unsure why you think that planting at 40/cm will not be noticeable?
dirtrider67
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JAYMAN: that sounds like a good plan. if my transplanted hair is see through at 35cm2, then i might get a second procedure to create a better yield in the hairline for the first 1 or 2 centimeters. but i'm still at 3 1/2 months post op and so far it's looking pretty amazing. just to have hair where it hasn't grown in 15 years is awesome. absolutely incredible! i'll post some pics soon to see what you guys think thus far.
Jayman,
I was really kind of just making a general point. The thing is, and I could be wrong here, but I thought the theory was to increase density behind the hairline, because no matter how dense you pack the front, if there's not enough density to deflect the light shining through, then it won't matter, the transplant will be see through. I believe that's why the docs are using the 2,3 and 4 hair FUs behind the hairline. Then, the FU/cm2 density increases, while the overall graft/cm2 density is relatively consistent if that makes sense.
As far as the 40 g/cm2, that's just a general starting point on the low end of the spectrum of course, and all dependent upon characteristics. If some guys have 40-45 at the hairline, but good density behind that, then their hair might not appear thinning. Others need 60-70 at the hairline, but still have more density behind that. That's why the best transplants are on guys with really solid hair in the crown area..it's all about not allowing light to pass through the scalp. A dense packed hairline will still show through if there's not enough density behind it to block the light.
I was really kind of just making a general point. The thing is, and I could be wrong here, but I thought the theory was to increase density behind the hairline, because no matter how dense you pack the front, if there's not enough density to deflect the light shining through, then it won't matter, the transplant will be see through. I believe that's why the docs are using the 2,3 and 4 hair FUs behind the hairline. Then, the FU/cm2 density increases, while the overall graft/cm2 density is relatively consistent if that makes sense.
As far as the 40 g/cm2, that's just a general starting point on the low end of the spectrum of course, and all dependent upon characteristics. If some guys have 40-45 at the hairline, but good density behind that, then their hair might not appear thinning. Others need 60-70 at the hairline, but still have more density behind that. That's why the best transplants are on guys with really solid hair in the crown area..it's all about not allowing light to pass through the scalp. A dense packed hairline will still show through if there's not enough density behind it to block the light.
haleystudios
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Daveone....
Armani's point is, if normal hair at regular density does not have a blood supply issue, then why would it not work with a transplant..... he has proven that theory to be wrong.... look at jeff, Dan, T, and others..... many others who dont even post..... and we are not talking about scars or shockless but blood supply... there is no issue...]
hell ... i mean Hasson and Wong believes this to be true .. they are doing over 80 grafts cm/2 in one pass as well as Armani....... There is no way Armani would talk s@it about 10,000 to 15,000 grafts being extracted fuss and fue if it were not true... he is doing it... pretty sure there out there... there is no blood supply issue... that's Bullsh@t old MHR like philosophy.
Armani's point is, if normal hair at regular density does not have a blood supply issue, then why would it not work with a transplant..... he has proven that theory to be wrong.... look at jeff, Dan, T, and others..... many others who dont even post..... and we are not talking about scars or shockless but blood supply... there is no issue...]
hell ... i mean Hasson and Wong believes this to be true .. they are doing over 80 grafts cm/2 in one pass as well as Armani....... There is no way Armani would talk s@it about 10,000 to 15,000 grafts being extracted fuss and fue if it were not true... he is doing it... pretty sure there out there... there is no blood supply issue... that's Bullsh@t old MHR like philosophy.
haleystudios
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with due respect Daveone..... i used to think the same way you did about Armani....
BigKaush did steroids during the process,, thats what he told me
Parable came in with scar tissue from 3 botchered procedures and Armani told him that he might not get the yield he wanted...
these were not freak cases...
BigKaush did steroids during the process,, thats what he told me
Parable came in with scar tissue from 3 botchered procedures and Armani told him that he might not get the yield he wanted...
these were not freak cases...
I appreciate your input, but as far as I know the only studies done at this point show that yeld goes down after about 50 g/cm2 are planted (maybe less, I'm quoting from memory). That doesn't mean a lot of the grafts won't grow. But, would you rather get 60-70% growth at 70-80g/cm2? Or 90% (since 10% of scalp hair is in telogen at any given time) at 40-50g/cm2 and then another pass if it's still necessary? I understand Armani pushing things forward, but until a study comes out showing that yield isn't compromised, I'd rather not waste donor hair. Even if you get 90 planted, what if only 60% grows? It might look good, but you've wasted a ton of grafts, and that's a huge deal down the road.
And I think we are getting too caught up in numbers. 50g/cm2 on one guy could look like 30 on another guy, or could look like 80 or 90 on another guy. It's all about individual characteristics. In the end dense packing on a guy who doesn't need it is a waste of money and grafts if:
1.) he doesn't actually need that much density, and
2.) it doesn't all grow.
And I think we are getting too caught up in numbers. 50g/cm2 on one guy could look like 30 on another guy, or could look like 80 or 90 on another guy. It's all about individual characteristics. In the end dense packing on a guy who doesn't need it is a waste of money and grafts if:
1.) he doesn't actually need that much density, and
2.) it doesn't all grow.
LookingGood!
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JayMan said:
No a;ways, depends on one's hair characteristics. 50 most of the time blocks out the sun. Even 40 sometimes. Also, planting at 90 doesnt always yield 90. Crowding and trauma to nearby resident hairsmay slow or arrest some yield.