Diminishing Effect of finasteride/minoxidil

[Guest]

well i left out peptides. prox-n once a day.

 

[Pondle]

So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?

Something like that, yes. And that androgens may start processes in motion which, after a period of time, may no longer be completely dependent on androgens.

Bryan

But if, as Michael Barry says, dutasteride could conceivably keep your hair count above baseline for 30 years plus, processes that aren't dependent upon androgens surely can't be a massive factor?

 

[Old Baldy]

Da** Bryan, you're welcome!

Bryan, are you able to read articles like that once and understand them? I'm being serious and curious because I STILL have to read them at least twice for them to sink in. Sometimes THREE times for Godsakes!

Also, here's the paragraph that made me think of DLM's diet theory, (I didn't post it in that thread because I think he'd probably just dismiss it out of hand). I noticed this paragraph the SECOND time I read the article:

2. Ethnicity and heredity.
Heredity plays an important role as shown by studies in twins by Meikle et al. (122, 123), which revealed that genes determine as much as 25–76% of the total variation of plasma levels of gonadotropins, testosterone, FT, estradiol, and estrone. In these studies, only 12% of the variation in serum DHT levels was explained by heredity, but there appears to be a strong genetic influence (over 40%) in the tissue formation and the production rate of DHT. Nongenetic, familial factors may also substantially contribute to the determination of plasma hormone levels, e.g. for SHBG (124). The genetic basis underlying the heredity of testosterone and FT is presently unknown. Considering the complexity of testosterone synthesis and the regulation of its secretion, there obviously is a broad range of candidate genes (125).

From all I've read, diet wouldn't ..... well..... nevermind, I'm just repeating myself.

 

[Bryan]

So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?

Something like that, yes. And that androgens may start processes in motion which, after a period of time, may no longer be completely dependent on androgens.

Bryan

But if, as Michael Barry says, dutasteride could conceivably keep your hair count above baseline for 30 years plus, processes that aren't dependent upon androgens surely can't be a massive factor?

That's right. I'm not saying it's necessarily a HUGE factor, it's probably a a fairly subtle one; but the earlier you start dutasteride, the more likely it is to keep your hair count above baseline for 30 years plus.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?

Something like that, yes. And that androgens may start processes in motion which, after a period of time, may no longer be completely dependent on androgens.

Bryan

But if, as Michael Barry says, dutasteride could conceivably keep your hair count above baseline for 30 years plus, processes that aren't dependent upon androgens surely can't be a massive factor?

That's right. I'm not saying it's necessarily a HUGE factor, it's probably a a fairly subtle one; but the earlier you start dutasteride, the more likely it is to keep your hair count above baseline for 30 years plus.

Bryan

dutasteride plus nizoral 3 times a week, plus 5% minoxidil twice a day could probably keep someone above baseline for 40 years if they start at NW3 or earlier. i'm getting an erection just thinking about it.

 

[buzzmenot]

Good study link! I couldn't help but notice this paragraph:

===============
B. Similarities between symptoms of aging and hypogonadism in young men
Frequent clinical manifestations of aging in males are decreased libido and sexual activity or impotence; decreased virility, with decreased sexual body hair and beard growth; decreased energy, work capacity and cognitive function with, as objective signs, decreased muscle mass and strength; decreased bone mineral density (BMD), with increased fracture risk; increased (abdominal) obesity; and slightly decreased hematocrit. The latter changes are frequently accompanied by signs of altered tone of the autonomous nervous system as manifested by nervousness, insomnia, and sometimes hot flushes. The analogy with the general symptomatology of hypogonadism in young males is striking: impaired virilization with poor development of sexual body hair and beard growth, decreased bone and muscle mass with decreased physical strength, weakness, decreased libido, and often erectile dysfunction, abdominal obesity, and difficulty with concentration.

This symptomatology in the elderly develops, however, slowly and progressively, the symptoms being subtle, variable, and not specific. Hence, the clinical symptomatology does at best only suggest the possibility of a hypoandrogenic state in the elderly.
===============


All above seem to be in the side-effect list of everybody here to various degrees on finasteride, my personal experience is it lessens over time and body definitely upregulates 5AR because when i missed finasteride for 12 hours last week my prostate nearly exploded :freaked2: the swelling was excruciating and alarming.

I'm fine with all the above at age 24, but one side-effect I do not readily experience is broken bones, should i brace myself for one soon? or does the increased estrogen counter it?

 

[StoptheMadness]

btw...I think this post should reach sticky status.

Michael and Bryan,
dutasteride appears to be our strongest salvation, but do you find it necessary to recommend it with extreme caution, or not, compared to finasteride? I find that most doctors will not prescribe it yet for hairloss as safety is their utmost concern.

 

[Guest]

btw...I think this post should reach sticky status.

Michael and Bryan,
dutasteride appears to be our strongest salvation, but do you find it necessary to recommend it with extreme caution, or not, compared to finasteride? I find that most doctors will not prescribe it yet for hairloss as safety is their utmost concern.

bump for stopthemadness

 

[Bryan]

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it with extreme caution, just reasonable caution! :wink:

Bryan

 

[iostream71]

i don't see how finasteride can give 10+ years of stability. i see people all the time write that it quit being effective a few years in and that their loss picked up. were these just bad responders?

 

[kalbo]

i don't see how finasteride can give 10+ years of stability. i see people all the time write that it quit being effective a few years in and that their loss picked up. were these just bad responders?

Yep, especially considering that even merck states that on average hair count begins to diminish after 2 years and you start going back to baseline in little over 5 years. They also state that the test subjects were using nizoral regularly.

Nice to read that finasteride and nizoral can maintain your hair for 10+ years, but cases like those are probably the exception rather than the norm.

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

i don't see how finasteride can give 10+ years of stability. i see people all the time write that it quit being effective a few years in and that their loss picked up. were these just bad responders?

Yep, especially considering that even merck states that on average hair count begins to diminish after 2 years and you start going back to baseline in little over 5 years. They also state that the test subjects were using nizoral regularly.

Nice to read that finasteride and nizoral can maintain your hair for 10+ years, but cases like those are probably the exception rather than the norm.

hair counts max out at around 2 years the decline after that is VERY VERY gradual...it could be due to a number of things (increased androgen receptor sensitivity or Bryan's theory of age: as u get older hair counts normal decrease) hair counts do not reach baseline "in a little over 5 years" from the graph on their site you can clearly see that hair counts are well above baseline after 5 years and they do not provide any info. after 5 years... I do not think its fair to extropolate those graphs and try to project where hair counts would after 5 years.

And another thing....the subjects in the trials DID NOT USE nizoral they used t/gel with coal tar....

 

[kalbo]

And another thing....the subjects in the trials DID NOT USE nizoral they used t/gel with coal tar....

oops, my bad on that one.

As for the graph, after second viewing I guess it's wrong to say most ppl will go baseline in a little over 5 years. But imo, 10 years could still be pushing it.

I hope you guys are right about the 10 year thing though cuz I would love to have this much hair when I'm 35 (especially considering how I thought I'd be bald by the time I hit 23)