Diet - Inflammation - male pattern baldness- The Process...

[abcdefg]

Docj do you think its safe at around 20-24 to use propecia for 20 years? What about the increased testosterone from propecia does this cause frontal hairloss? Why does hair in different places respond so differently from androgens and why on earth does my facial hair get thicker while my head hair gets thinner? it makes no sense.

 

[docj077]

Docj do you think its safe at around 20-24 to use propecia for 20 years? What about the increased testosterone from propecia does this cause frontal hairloss? Why does hair in different places respond so differently from androgens and why on earth does my facial hair get thicker while my head hair gets thinner? it makes no sense.

I can't give such advice with regards to propecia. There are studies that demonstrate that long term use of finasteride is okay. I think that prolonged use really depends upon your side effects and whether or not you desire to continue with treatment. I used it for 7-9 months (I can't remember anymore) and it caused me nothing, but problems. Especially, when it comes to my bank account. Everyone is different physiologically and the individual response is based upon individual pharcodynamics and pharmacokinetics.

As for the question regarding the different response of androgens, I really have no response for that right now. I'm still looking into that phenomenon. I'm really hoping that I can find a study that demonstrates an increased concentration of androgen receptors or 5AR in the scalp compared to other regions of the body. Not only would that help us out with regards to the odd response in male pattern baldness, but it would also help to explain why scalp hair grows longer and thicker than other hair on the human body. I'm still looking for such studies.

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

I dont know if you know this, but when scalp hair is transplanted to the body......................it grows short like body hair


Body hair transplanted to the scalp has been documented to grow over six inches in length. However, it does not always do this. There are alot of men who get body hair transplanted to their heads now, and a few docs specialize in this.

Here is a pic of a guy who moved only body hair to his head
http://www.dermhairclinic.com/photogallery01.html


There are problems with body hair though. .................it does not always lengthen its cycles, and some patients have to keep cutting their hair short. Its also prone to staying kinda "kinky" and not straight like head hair. Also, transplanting a good densities sees lousy yields in most cases. Its been found that 30 hairs per square centimeter (which isnt very thick at all) is where the most hair will actually grow.


However, there has been one "wow" case with bodyhair, but I cant post the pic until Cole (a Doctor) updates his forum. A guy who was Norwood 2 with diffuse thinning literally got a Brad Pitt (hell, even better than that) hairline of super-thick large straight BLACK hair. It looks incredible.

BHT's as they are called often take two or three years to "grow in" also. They are very contriversial. Most, in my opinion, have been failures, but there has been some good results. Oddly enough, the best result I ever saw was in a guy who started finas and minoxidil.

I have a feeling lots of ageing in the scalp and collagen restricts BHT's. ALso the BHT's are usually one and two hair units, not the two's-through fours' we see in scalp hair donor area follicular units.


One more thing, if you move scalp hari to the body, alot of it wont grow immediately. The shorter growth cycles seem to take place immediately. There was a Korean study to this effect. The hairs to stay large and fat though and keep their original color. Much of this is attributed to some skin hormone that had a ridiculously long name 3 hydrodoxy-blah-blah-blah.............................

 

[docj077]

Doctor,

I dont know if you know this, but when scalp hair is transplanted to the body......................it grows short like body hair


Body hair transplanted to the scalp has been documented to grow over six inches in length. However, it does not always do this. There are alot of men who get body hair transplanted to their heads now, and a few docs specialize in this.

Here is a pic of a guy who moved only body hair to his head
http://www.dermhairclinic.com/photogallery01.html


There are problems with body hair though. .................it does not always lengthen its cycles, and some patients have to keep cutting their hair short. Its also prone to staying kinda "kinky" and not straight like head hair. Also, transplanting a good densities sees lousy yields in most cases. Its been found that 30 hairs per square centimeter (which isnt very thick at all) is where the most hair will actually grow.


However, there has been one "wow" case with bodyhair, but I cant post the pic until Cole (a Doctor) updates his forum. A guy who was Norwood 2 with diffuse thinning literally got a Brad Pitt (hell, even better than that) hairline of super-thick large straight BLACK hair. It looks incredible.

BHT's as they are called often take two or three years to "grow in" also. They are very contriversial. Most, in my opinion, have been failures, but there has been some good results. Oddly enough, the best result I ever saw was in a guy who started finas and minoxidil.

I have a feeling lots of ageing in the scalp and collagen restricts BHT's. ALso the BHT's are usually one and two hair units, not the two's-through fours' we see in scalp hair donor area follicular units.


One more thing, if you move scalp hari to the body, alot of it wont grow immediately. The shorter growth cycles seem to take place immediately. There was a Korean study to this effect. The hairs to stay large and fat though and keep their original color. Much of this is attributed to some skin hormone that had a ridiculously long name 3 hydrodoxy-blah-blah-blah.............................

No, I was unaware of the different growth characteristics when scalp hair is transplanted to the body or when body hair is transplanted to the scalp. I'm curious to know if the different types of growth are linked to the concentration of growth factors present in the regional tissue.

If you have the time and the patience, could you direct me to the study that demonstrated the existence of the skin hormone that maintains hair diameter and pigment when transplanted?

 

[SkylineGTR]

thats just the thing he doesn't know.

It's just a theory.

Which has been shown to be flawed.

 

[docj077]

Because of DammitLetMeIn, I am now on super strict diet. I don't understand about 90% of the things hes talking about, but he sounds like he knows his $#iT. So I'm sold.

The diet has to be both low in protein and low in calories combined with regular endurance exercise to reduce IGF-1. High protein diets increase IGF-1 and increase cancer risk. High fat intake is also associated with increased IGF-1 and so is increased carbohydrate intake.

I don't know what you're eating (maybe a cup of water per day?), but good luck with that. Unless you can do photosynthesis, you're not going to make it very long.

It takes more than moderation to significantly reduce IGF-1.

 

[docj077]

Well I'm trying to balance Omega-3's with Omega-6's. I dont eat meat. I eat a ton of flex seed and a ton of grains, oats. I stay away from white rice, white bread.

Yet, my shrink pointed out that I am thining a lot more than when i first saw him.

Multivitamin? Just curious.

 

[docj077]

yes, why?

I'm just curious about your diet and supplementation. What brand of multi are you using?

Also, what you're describing is a diet that is low in carbs and I'm guessing fats, as well. Do you strictly get protein from plant sources? Do you eat a lot of soy products?

Have you noticed an overall thinning or has it just been the opinion of others that has led you to such a conclusion?

Lastly, are you on any medications? Did you start them once you began seeing the current health professional you mentioned above?

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

Here is one study that shows caucasoids have higher skin androgens than chinese...............and more body hair, http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... /72/6/1242

Im lookin' for the body hair tranpslant study



AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (score one for the mikey)

here ya' go man,

: Dermatol Surg. 2002 Sep;28(9):795-8; discussion 798-9. Related Articles, Links


Does the recipient site influence the hair growth characteristics in hair transplantation?

Hwang S, Kim JC, Ryu HS, Cha YC, Lee SJ, Na GY, Kim DW.

Department of Dermatology, Kyungpook National University School of Medicine, Taegu, Korea.

BACKGROUND: Recently hair transplantation has been widely applied not only to correct androgenetic alopecia, but also to correct hair loss on other parts of the body such as the eyebrows and pubic area. It is believed that the transplanted hairs will maintain their integrity and characteristics after transplantation to new nonscalp sites. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate whether the transplanted hairs maintain their hair growth characteristics after transplantation to a new anatomic site other than the scalp. METHODS: Three study designs were used. Study I: Hair transplantation from the author's occipital scalp to his lower leg was performed and clinical evaluations were made at both 6 months and at 3 years after the transplantation. Study II: After finding changes in hair growth characteristics, transplanted hairs were harvested from the leg and retransplanted to the left side of the nape of the neck (group A). As a control study, occipital hairs were transplanted to the opposite side (group B). Observations were made at 6 months after the operation. Study III: An observational study was done in 12 patients with androgenetic alopecia about 1 year after transplantation of occipital hair to frontal scalp. At each step, survival rates were documented and the rate of growth and the diameter of the shafts were measured for both recipient and donor sites. RESULTS: Study I: Surviving hairs on the lower leg showed a lower growth rate (8.2 +/- 0.9 mm/month), but the same diameter (0.086 +/- 0.018 mm) compared with occipital hairs (16.0 +/- 1.1 mm/month, 0.088 +/- 0.016 mm). The survival rate 3 years after transplantation was 60.2%. Study II: There was no significant difference in the growth rate, shaft diameter, and survival rate between retransplanted hairs (group A) and controls (group B). Groups A and B showed a lower growth rate, but the same diameter, compared with occipital hairs. Study III: There was no significant difference in the growth rate and shaft diameter between the transplanted hairs on the frontal scalp and the occipital hairs. CONCLUSION: These results strongly suggest that the recipient site affects some characteristics of transplanted hairs, such as their growth and survival rates.

Publication Types:
Evaluation Studies

PMID: 12269871 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[SkylineGTR]

you forgot bigger penis' also. lol

 

[docj077]

Thanks, Mr. Barry. I appreciate it. Very interesting findings. I wonder if the rate and type of growth is correlated with the concentration of 5AR in those tissues and the degree of pro-growth molecule production.

I'm going to go looking for a few more studies regarding IGF-1 in the skin.

I've already posted a couple studies that demonstrate its link to collagen deposition when working with TGF-beta synergistically (I need to find a study that is scalp specific, however). Hopefully, I'll find a study that will explain the proliferative vs. differentiation effect that IGF-1 has in tissue. I want to know if the lack of differentiation is responsible for a lack of mature keratinocytes and what that effect has on hair growth. Does lack of differentiation and keratinocyte maturity = inability for keratinocytes to adequately produce hair? I don't know. Also, does the possible increase in keratinocyte proliferation lead to cellular death and a fibrotic response from dermal fibroblasts to attempt to repair the damage? Again, I don't know.

The last thing that I really need to find (or hopefully a study will come out soon) is a link between androgen receptor sensitivity mutations, increase 5AR in certain regions of the scalp, and those regions corresponding to increased IGF-1 and TGF-beta within increase keratinocyte proliferation and decreased keratinocyte differentiation leading to reduced hair growth secondary to keratinocyte hypofunction or fibrosis causing another effects on hair growth through follicular contact inhibition or whatever this effect happens to be.

We'll figure this thing out yet. I don't know what we can do about it when it comes to dealing with these molecules instead of androgens, but we'll figure it out.

 

[docj077]

you forgot bigger penis' also. lol

Sometimes..


Anyways, I take centrum and I just lowered my dose of effexor cause I read that it can cause hairloss. I lied about not eating any meats though. I do eat a ham and turkey sub at subway every day. It's 6' and all thats on it is lettuce, tomatos, and italian dressing. Should I cut that out?

Subway is pretty healthy. The only thing you're eating on that sub that might be iffy is the italian dressing. You might want to look into that. Otherwise, I wouldn't be too worried. I only really eat chicken, turkey, and fish on a daily basis. I rarely eat beef.

In terms of your health and diet, subway is far better than Quiznos. My favorite sub is a large Classic Italian at Quiznos. I checked on the nutritional information for the sub and I can get all my calories, all my fat, all my carbohydrates, all my sodium, and all my protein by eating just one large sandwich.

Thanks for telling me about the effexor. I was curious.

 

[SkylineGTR]

i'm all over their prime rib on garlic bread.

I eat subway religiously. Roast beef on italian herbs. Lettuce onions tomatoes olives jalapenos mayo salt and pepper. mmmm

Or a BLT.

 

[docj077]

i'm all over their prime rib on garlic bread.

I eat subway religiously. Roast beef on italian herbs. Lettuce onions tomatoes olives jalapenos mayo salt and pepper. mmmm

Or a BLT.

I'm going to have to start going to subway again. Quiznos is just too unhealthy.

 

[SkylineGTR]

yeah when a sub drips grease when you pick it up or leaves residue (other then normal olive oil) on the paper you know your eating crap lol.

 

[abcdefg]

I think in terms of diet for someone trying to just maximize being healthy and live as long as is possible with diet you must be very restrictive. I think really the only things you could eat would be
blue berries, lots of broccoli, spinach very dark greens of course. Carrots and apples and maybe bananas. I would not touch anything else. Only water to drink or maybe juiced vegetables or a special blend since no store bought juices really work that well. Then protein is the only hard thing to get maybe light soy milk, beans or tuna. Thats the extreme I wanna try to live as long as possible routine. Everyday every meal nothing but those exact foods. Also very low amount of those foods I think its healthy to be not starving but hungry most of the time. Food was not meant to eaten at our leisure like it is today.
I dont care about living to 100 or being totally healthy so I try my best but eat some crappy food too. I mean you didnt really enjoy the life you had if you just eat perfect. I mean a long time ago they ate and drank to be merry I mean who doesnt like that today?
If you did eat the perfect diet like I mentioned though I think thats the best your going to do today to a fountain of youth. You would want to kill yourself after 6 months of that though.
Diets are so common sense I mean who doesnt know what you should eat. If it tastes good dont eat it and if tastes terrible eat more. The problem is doing it.

 

[Guest]

Because of DammitLetMeIn, I am now on super strict diet. I don't understand about 90% of the things hes talking about, but he sounds like he knows his $#iT. So I'm sold.

The diet has to be both low in protein and low in calories combined with regular endurance exercise to reduce IGF-1. High protein diets increase IGF-1 and increase cancer risk. High fat intake is also associated with increased IGF-1 and so is increased carbohydrate intake.

I don't know what you're eating (maybe a cup of water per day?), but good luck with that. Unless you can do photosynthesis, you're not going to make it very long.

It takes more than moderation to significantly reduce IGF-1.

Is it really going to affect my Avodart results if I eat a high protein diet? I probably take in about 150 grams of protein a day. I don't want it to affect my hair negatively but I really don't think that it will.

 

[Strange Days]

Great article here about Okinawans (Japanese islands of Okinawa are home to largest population of centenarians). It doesn't specifically mention hair loss but it's very interesting nonetheless.

TIME - How To Live To Be 100

Scientists working for the U.S. National Institutes of Health and Japan's Ministry of Health have been following oldsters like Toguchi since 1976 in the Okinawa Centenarian Study (OCS) and they've learned that he's typical. Elderly Okinawans tend to get plenty of physical and mental exercise. Their diets, moreover, are exemplary: low in fat and salt, and high in fruits and vegetables packed with fiber and antioxidant substances that protect against cancer, heart disease and stroke. They consume more soy than any other population on earth: 60-120 g a day, compared to 30-50 g for the average Japanese, 10 for Chinese and virtually 0 g for the average American. Soy is rich in flavonoids--antioxidants strongly linked to low rates of cancer. This may be one of many reasons why the annual death rate from cancer in Okinawa is far below the U.S. rate.

(....)

Need convincing evidence that our modern lifestyle can shorten lives? Look what happens when Okinawans move permanently off the island. They pick up the diet and cultural behaviors of their adopted country--and within a generation, their life-spans decrease and their rates of cancer and heart attack zoom. Even on the island, young males are following the seductive, virulent American style and renouncing imo for hamburgers. "Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan," says Dr. Makoto Suzuki, leader of the study of Okinawan elders. "It started to decline 10 years ago and hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it to decline even further in the next census."

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Need convincing evidence that our modern lifestyle can shorten lives? Look what happens when Okinawans move permanently off the island. They pick up the diet and cultural behaviors of their adopted country--and within a generation, their life-spans decrease and their rates of cancer and heart attack zoom. Even on the island, young males are following the seductive, virulent American style and renouncing imo for hamburgers. "Okinawan male life expectancy used to be No. 1 in Japan," says Dr. Makoto Suzuki, leader of the study of Okinawan elders. "It started to decline 10 years ago and hit 26th out of 47 prefectures in the 2000 census. I expect it to decline even further in the next census."

[/quote]

Diet is definitely a huge factor for some people I feel especially in those individuals where the genetic predisposition isn't as strong.