DHT! Scalp vs. serum levels

[Lessofarockstar]

I know this has probably been discussed about a million times.
But... The thing is that I am thinking about restarting propecia. I had some side effects and quit rather fast the first time, but I want to give it another try.

So I have been going through the dosage studies of finasteride, and it struck me that very low dosages of finasteride (0.05 mg) lowered scalp dht significantly. It did not lower the serum levels to the same extent, but what I am thinking is that this must be a good thing.

http://www.physics.upenn.edu/facultyinfo/frankel/papers/propeciafda2/index.html
I am definitely no expert on this, but wouldn't low scalp DHT levels and higher serum levels be the best combo? (More hair - less sides from low serum levels??)
I might be completely wrong on the importance of serum levels. So if I am mistaken can any of the experts out there explain why low serum levels should be as important as scalp levels?

Thanks!

 

[Lessofarockstar]

Ok not a lot of activity in this thread...
I am going to add another link.
http://www.hairsite7.com/m526dutas16/_disc526/00000008.htm

This study shows that 0.05 mg of finasteride lowers scalp skin dht by 61.6 % while reducing serum levels by 49.5 %
The 0.2 dosage reduced scalp and serume dht by 56,5 and 68,6 % respectively.
1 mg reduced scalp dht by 64.1 % and serum levels by 71.4 %

Is this not a clear indicator of the benefits of microdosing? I mean low scalp levels and higher serum levels must be the best way to go????
I am going to try this approach when I restart propecia in a week or so. I will try splitting propecia in 1/8 (0.125 mg), and hopefully this will yield some results :lol:

Has anybody got some words of wisdom on this? Are these studies valid? Or has anybody tried this approach with success? Without success?

Any input would be highly appreciated.

Lessofarockstar (who likes DHT in his system, but nowhere near his hair)

 

[Boru]

Hi
This is good thinking, and worth a try. I am going to take .5 mg from now on, to see if it makes any difference. The 1mg may be giving me some side effects, have you heard of the dreaded "brain fog"? Also, finasteride does something to tolerance for alcohol, which have positive and negative side effects. I like red wine, but it goes down too easy! Still, as one grows older it is harder to give up the remaining pleasantries of life. I have had to admit to myself that I will never be able to play footie for England, or win a marathon etc. Perhaps growing some hair is the best I can do, but it can be as exhausting as a marathon. All this science is fascinating though. Good luck with your efforts.
Boru

 

[chuckfrasher]

Hi
This is good thinking, and worth a try. I am going to take .5 mg from now on, to see if it makes any difference. The 1mg may be giving me some side effects, have you heard of the dreaded "brain fog"? Also, finasteride does something to tolerance for alcohol, which have positive and negative side effects. I like red wine, but it goes down too easy! Still, as one grows older it is harder to give up the remaining pleasantries of life. I have had to admit to myself that I will never be able to play footie for England, or win a marathon etc. Perhaps growing some hair is the best I can do, but it can be as exhausting as a marathon. All this science is fascinating though. Good luck with your efforts.
Boru

I take 1/4 tab of Proscar and have never had any side effects. I think people often times attribute things to finasteride that are not related. That's why there were side effects reported in the placebo group that were very simialr to the side effects reported by finsasteride users.

There was a guy a long time ago that said he was starting to have gay thoughts since beginning finasteride and that he had never had them before, hehe!

 

[rkim]

Maybe it’s tough to understand if you’ve never experienced it, but there’s no mistaking these sides. No placebo. If the rest of these poor souls are feeling what I do then it’s the finasteride, trust me. It actually feels weird. Cold and clammy, like it’s going to crawl up and turn into a vagina.

I cut to .25 a couple weeks ago and went right into doing .25 EOD. Can’t wait to see if the .25 everyday will help. I’ve had enough. Things feel better right now. Though I’ve been fooled before. It’s such a roller coaster that it might be timing. In the end, I’m more excited about getting back to normal than I was about a full head of hair!!!! Though both would be nice.

Does anyone feel numbness anywhere on their body? Could this be the finasteride? First it was my foot and leg, now it’s my whole scalp, neck, parts of my face and arms and hands. Weird.

 

[Jupiter1]

Lessofarockstar - I've posted information from my own researches. Perhaps you would benefit by them 8)

http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-forums ... =1&t=15406

 

[Lessofarockstar]

Boru: thanks and good luck to you too
Jupiter: looks really interesting. A lot of reading to do tonight. But it's great to get some additional input on the subject.
Btw what is the immortalhair program?

 

[Lessofarockstar]

ok... I looked through a lot of the studies.
I am thinking of doing one of these three dosages: 0.25, 0.2 or 0.125 mg of finasteride. But i am not sure which one I will decide go with yet.

Here are my thoughts on it:

As I see it these are these facts to consider:

Serum DHT: at 0.2 mg you have surpressed DHT as much as you would by 5 mg. But this is not my main priority. I would pay more attention to scalp dht. Actually i prefer DHT serum levels as close to normal ones as possible. So as I have argued earlier it is about finding a dosage that gives you the optimum Scalp Dht/ serum dht ratio. That being one that works on your hair without causing too many sides due to dangerously low serum levels. http://dept.physics.upenn.edu/facultyin ... peciafda2/

Scalp DHT: Just with 0.05 mg of finasteride you reduce scalp dht by more than 60 %. I have seen a study showing that in a specific study the balding men had an average concentration of scalp DHT less than double of not balding men. So just eliminating 50 % of scalp dht should be sufficient to stop balding. For regrowth more would probably be needed.
I cannot find the link that shows the difference in scalp levels right now, but I will try to post it later.
http://www.hairsite7.com/m526dutas16/_d ... 000008.htm

Hair count: Ok, so this is important... This is where the actual results show up. 1 mg apparently gives an additional 77 hairs by month 6 while the 0.2 would add 61 hairs to that 1 inch circle. So of course there is some difference (20 %) but since many are just looking to stop hairloss, 0.2 mg would be sufficient. And still an improvement of 66 is still very good. Maybe as little as 0.05 would be sufficient in order to halt any further loss.
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/download/finmicro.pdf

So what's the conclusion?
Besides the haircount study (i know this is very important if you are up high on the Norwood scale) there are no other reasons to go above 0.2 mg of finasteride. And if you are only looking to maintain an even lower dose than 0.2 could possibly be sufficient.

What do you think Jupiter? Or anybody else for that sake...

Lessofarockstar (who is never going back on the full 1 mg finasteride/day)

 

[Chujgcha]

For the sake of hair count I wonder if one could take 1 mg for 6 months and then step the dosage down to 0.5 mg and finally 0.2 mg?

Get all the increased hair count and maintain it with the lower dose?

BTW, have any of you guys come across any research that shows finasteride loses it effectiveness over time?

 

[Lessofarockstar]

For the sake of hair count I wonder if one could take 1 mg for 6 months and then step the dosage down to 0.5 mg and finally 0.2 mg?

Get all the increased hair count and maintain it with the lower dose?

Hard to say... The problem might be that when you take finasteride your body will try to compensate by increasing 5-alpha reductase... And when going from a higher dose to a lower dose you might not be able to sustain the benefits you had in the first place, because your body is used to fight 1 mg of finasteride... Am i making sense..? - I'm not sure :hairy:

 

[Bryan]

BTW, have any of you guys come across any research that shows finasteride loses it effectiveness over time?

How would one precisely DEFINE a "loss of effectiveness"? The 5-year Propecia study shows a slow, gradual decline in haircounts after the 1-year peak, but does that indicate a decline of effectiveness of finasteride itself, or a worsening of the balding process? Personally, I think it's the latter explanation, not the former. You can't blame finasteride for that.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Hard to say... The problem might be that when you take finasteride your body will try to compensate by increasing 5-alpha reductase...

It might actually be the OPPOSITE of that: less DHT leads to a downregulation of the type 2 form of 5a-reductase. There's some indirect evidence to suggest that as a possibility, although I'm not absolutely certain about it...

Bryan

 

[Lessofarockstar]

Hard to say... The problem might be that when you take finasteride your body will try to compensate by increasing 5-alpha reductase...

It might actually be the OPPOSITE of that: less DHT leads to a downregulation of the type 2 form of 5a-reductase. There's some indirect evidence to suggest that as a possibility, although I'm not absolutely certain about it...

Bryan

Bryan,
that's interesting but how would that work?
Do you think that by reducing 5a-reductase for long enough the body simply gives up and downregulates for good? That would actually mean that you could be on finasteride for a really long time and then at some point (when the body has downregulated 5a-reductase) you could stop and still benefit from your time on finasteride.
But Merck says that you will return to baseline within 12 months of stopping treatment. Wouldn't that suggest that after stopping treatment your initial 5a-reductase will be running wild?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
that's interesting but how would that work?
Do you think that by reducing 5a-reductase for long enough the body simply gives up and downregulates for good? That would actually mean that you could be on finasteride for a really long time and then at some point (when the body has downregulated 5a-reductase) you could stop and still benefit from your time on finasteride.

No no, it wouldn't work like that. It would go back to "normal" after you stop taking the finasteride.

But Merck says that you will return to baseline within 12 months of stopping treatment. Wouldn't that suggest that after stopping treatment your initial 5a-reductase will be running wild?

Sure. That's what would happen.

Bryan