DHT level affect nervous system, bone density, and muscles !

[sam-]

>>> Clearly we should realize that there is a lot more to dihydrotestosterone than just side effects. The formation of this hormone in the human body plays a crucial role in several areas, including sexual functioning, the maintenance and functioning of the central nervous system, and support of bone density and muscle mass.<<< :shock:

http://www.businesslafayette.com/dht.htm

 

[rockandroll]

I'm not going to argue with the article, but I thought I'd drop in and give my two cents. As a professional competing athlete (martial arts), I can tell you that taking Propecia has not affected my physical development at all. When I say professional competing athlete, I mean the kind that actually works out like a crazy motherf**er, is in better shape than most other people who do sports regularly on a hobby basis, does not lose every single fight, etc. etc. etc. Now, I'm NOT a bodybuilder. This might be different with bodybuilders due to their huge mass (no, I'm not talking about THAT mass!).

Plus, Propecia doesn't block ALL DHT ...wait, that should probably be a :evil:

 

[sam-]

HairLossTalk.com & Bryan, could you please comment on that.

 

[HairlossTalk]

The answer to this is simple.

in some guys, DHT is a big deal.

in some guys, its not.

For guys who DHT is a big deal, they tend to have problems on Propecia (me).

For guys who don't rely on DHT as much in tissues throughout the body, they wont notice anything (everyone else).

End of issue.

Its a known fact DHT is in tissues all throughout the body. This isn't new info.

The point is, not many people have any problems once its depleted. Some do, majority don't.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Dave001]

I'm not going to argue with the article, but I thought I'd drop in and give my two cents. As a professional competing athlete (martial arts), I can tell you that taking Propecia has not affected my physical development at all. When I say professional competing athlete, I mean the kind that actually works out like a crazy motherf**er, is in better shape than most other people who do sports regularly on a hobby basis, does not lose every single fight, etc. etc. etc.

How can you tell us that? How on earth would you know whether it's affecting your performance/

With the exception of boxers and kickboxers, most martial artists don't even fight (not in the USA, anyway). I say that because you mention not losing, but don't say anything about winning, either. Oh, wait, you said you're a professional. What sport?

 

[Dave001]

The answer to this is simple.

in some guys, DHT is a big deal.

in some guys, its not.

For guys who DHT is a big deal, they tend to have problems on Propecia (me).

For guys who don't rely on DHT as much in tissues throughout the body, they wont notice anything (everyone else).

End of issue.

Its a known fact DHT is in tissues all throughout the body. This isn't new info.

The point is, not many people have any problems once its depleted. Some do, majority don't.

It's not an absolute phenomenon. I think it would be more accurate to say that side-effects occur on a continuum of severity.

 

[triton2]

As far as getting huge and muscular is concerned DHT is quite irrelevant because:

1) 5AR enzyme is barely, if at all, expressed at skeletal muscle tissue

2) Serum DHT arriving at skeletal muscle tissue will be deactivated by 3HSD enzyme

 

[Dave001]

As far as getting huge and muscular is concerned DHT is quite irrelevant because:

1) 5AR enzyme is barely, if at all, expressed at skeletal muscle tissue

2) Serum DHT arriving at skeletal muscle tissue will be deactivated by 3HSD enzyme

Androgen receptors in muscle tissue are only one of many targets involved in anabolism.

That said, I don't think that inhibiting 5alpha-reductase will be of much consequence to muscle growth one way or the other. Most men easily gain muscle through proper training, anyway. The concern would be its effect on functional performance, including e.g., CNS recovery and strength.

 

[jeffsss]

just to put my .02 in..

I know several bodybuilders/powerlifters who are on propecia.

the seem alright.

 

[global]

As far as getting huge and muscular is concerned DHT is quite irrelevant because:

1) 5AR enzyme is barely, if at all, expressed at skeletal muscle tissue

2) Serum DHT arriving at skeletal muscle tissue will be deactivated by 3HSD enzyme

Androgen receptors in muscle tissue are only one of many targets involved in anabolism.

That said, I don't think that inhibiting 5alpha-reductase will be of much consequence to muscle growth one way or the other. Most men easily gain muscle through proper training, anyway. The concern would be its effect on functional performance, including e.g., CNS recovery and strength.

Have you ever done bodybuilding Dave? I wouldn't say it is quite easy to put on muscle, especially after the age of 30.

However I do agree with you and triton that DHT is not really a factor in anabolism.

 

[Dave001]

I wouldn't say it is quite easy to put on muscle, especially after the age of 30.

Are you kidding? I doubt there's any significant difference betwen 20 and 30.

 

[triton2]

I wouldn't say it is quite easy to put on muscle, especially after the age of 30.

Are you kidding? I doubt there's any significant difference betwen 20 and 30.

Me too. In fact, bodybuilders are in much greater shape when they are 30 than they were at 20; muscle maturity takes time and requires you to get somewhat old in order to accomplish it. There are even bodybuilders such as Ronnie who reach their greatest ever shapes when they are 40 or older.

 

[global]

Are we talking natural or bodybuilders who take steroids here?

I'm 37 and I'm in great shape but I've been training since I was 18.

If someone took up bodybuilding for the first time in their 30 s however I dont think they would find it particularly easy to gain significant amounts of muscle since natural testosterone levels are now in decline.

Even people in their twenties can find it hard to gain once they've put on the initial few kilos everyone puts on when they first begin training, most people tend to reach a plateau. That's why most of the people I see at the gym aren't huge.

 

[Dave001]

Are we talking natural or bodybuilders who take steroids here?

Neither, but irrelevant in either case.

I'm 37 and I'm in great shape but I've been training since I was 18.

You've just answered your question. Training duration is the important variable here. It follows the law of diminishing returns.

If someone took up bodybuilding for the first time in their 30 s however I dont think they would find it particularly easy to gain significant amounts of muscle since natural testosterone levels are now in decline.

Testosterone levels between a 20 and 30-year-old are of negligable difference. So what if it is in decline? The rate of decline is extremely slow.

Even people in their twenties can find it hard to gain once they've put on the initial few kilos everyone puts on when they first begin training, most people tend to reach a plateau. That's why most of the people I see at the gym aren't huge.

But that has nothing to do with age.

Too much muscle growth impairs functional performance. Very few people train for the purpose of posing on a stage. The only one who has ever pulled that off with charisma is the present governor of CA. Most athletics favor functional muscle (i.e., strength) over useless bulk. Most bodybuilders are very weak for their size.

 

[global]

Are we talking natural or bodybuilders who take steroids here?

Neither, but irrelevant in either case.

No it's not irrelevant, if there was an age related decline in testosterone levels as I suggested then clearly taking steroids would correct that and make it as easy for an older person to gain muscle as a younger person. Or just make it easier for a younger person to gain muscle, which was your original point that "most men easily gain muscle".

Now having checked the age related decline chart I see that in fact you were correct and there is little difference between testosterone levels of a 20 year old and a 30 year old, although there is a decline from mid 30's onwards, so it will become a factor later on.

I'm 37 and I'm in great shape but I've been training since I was 18.

You've just answered your question. Training duration is the important variable here. It follows the law of diminishing returns.

I wasn't actually asking a question but nevertheless getting back to the original point which was your claim that most men gain muscle quite easily which was what I disagreed with (the age question just being a side issue) in my experience most men who begin training will make an initial gain but then plateau and find it difficult to make any progress after that. Usually it won't take 20 years of training to reach that plateau or follow a neat law of diminishing returns.

If someone took up bodybuilding for the first time in their 30 s however I dont think they would find it particularly easy to gain significant amounts of muscle since natural testosterone levels are now in decline.

Testosterone levels between a 20 and 30-year-old are of negligable difference. So what if it is in decline? The rate of decline is extremely slow.

Even people in their twenties can find it hard to gain once they've put on the initial few kilos everyone puts on when they first begin training, most people tend to reach a plateau. That's why most of the people I see at the gym aren't huge.

But that has nothing to do with age.

No I didn't say it did, just that most men don't easily gain muscle, in fact it takes a lot of hard work.

Too much muscle growth impairs functional performance. Very few people train for the purpose of posing on a stage. The only one who has ever pulled that off with charisma is the present governor of CA. Most athletics favor functional muscle (i.e., strength) over useless bulk. Most bodybuilders are very weak for their size.

Most people don't train to pose on a stage but most people do train for cosmetic reasons. Most people don't walk round like Arnold, but likewise most people aren't walking around with the reasonably muscled bodies of of a male model. Most people are walking around with beer guts or skinny scrawny bodies, why? because its actually quite hard to improve your body.

By the way bodybuilders don't train for strength and so may not be as strong as weight lifters but I would never describe them as weak even if qualified by "for their size". Fact is they are stronger than most people can only dream of.