DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study
- Thread starter michael barry
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Re:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have "high T levels". I'd say that they have somewhat higher average T levels, much like finasteride users. It shouldn't come as any surprise that finasteride users and pseudohermaphrodites have similar hormonal profiles.
But no, that extra bit of testosterone isn't enough to cause a problem for hair.
Prevent99 said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have "high T levels". I'd say that they have somewhat higher average T levels, much like finasteride users. It shouldn't come as any surprise that finasteride users and pseudohermaphrodites have similar hormonal profiles.
But no, that extra bit of testosterone isn't enough to cause a problem for hair.
another thing that proves that dht is a lot more important to block then testerone is bodybuilders all over forums talk about their experience with steroids injecting huge amounts of test around 1000mg a week and run dutasteride with the steroid, they claim not to shed or lose any hair during the 2 month cycle but if they don't run dutasteride they lose a ton. im not sayin testerone cant affect the hair but if your blocking 98.5 of type 2 dht the teserone will only have a small impact on hair if any. so people in this thread that say dht blockers is only fighting half the battle are wrong. id say dutasteride is battling 95 percent of the battle, the rest is testerone.
antonio666
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no you are wrong i have been on dutasteride for a year and my hair is miles worse than when i beganphish said:
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phish said:
Hi Phish;
With all due respect, probably the more important levels of androgens are syntethized in the pilosebaseous unit itself. Circulating androgens are less important. Tipe 1 5 alfareductasa is located in sebaceous gland.
Armando
docj077
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antonio666 said:
It doesn't work for everybody. The same holds true for many drugs across all drug classes for individuals taking medications. Sorry, but sometimes life just isn't fair enough to hand you the necessary physiological equipment required for your body to adapt appropriately.
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Bryan said:Armando Jose said:
Armando, I'm really hoping that you can put that to the test!
Are you making any progress on that?
Hi Bryan,
I'm also hoping the same.
In less than two weeks I'll have the results about this test. I have to wait the opening of child school.
Now I have a lot of work with an interesting patent not related to hairloss.
Thank you for your interest and Happy New Year at all friends from this forum.
Armando
hair_fighter
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so from these discussions i understand that free testosterone can also play a role in Hair loss. so dis reason explains why people go balding after the onset of puberty and some people complain that why masturbation leads to baldness. so stopping masturbation or any kind of activity that links to increase in testosterone levels can have a Chance of causing hairloss or baldness.
to support this i have a real life explanation. i found that some of my friends who are sexually more agressive i.e in terms of talkin about sex more and who shows a more inclination towards any kind of sexual activity like masturbating(i know which of my masturbates daily or more)i compared their hairs from my school days to present which is maybe 6 years or more duration.majority of them who i think that they are sexually more aggressive are either balding or in the process of balding. so i clearly understand that masturbation or any kind of sexual activity at an young age(18-25) can definitely lead to hairloss(not everyone but majority of them).
so the moral of the story is stop masturbation to stop hairloss. stopping it wont cause any harm the worst is stopping will do nothing why to lose hair knowin that it may cause hairloss or not than knowin that stopping will definitely reduce testosterone levels
to support this i have a real life explanation. i found that some of my friends who are sexually more agressive i.e in terms of talkin about sex more and who shows a more inclination towards any kind of sexual activity like masturbating(i know which of my masturbates daily or more)i compared their hairs from my school days to present which is maybe 6 years or more duration.majority of them who i think that they are sexually more aggressive are either balding or in the process of balding. so i clearly understand that masturbation or any kind of sexual activity at an young age(18-25) can definitely lead to hairloss(not everyone but majority of them).
so the moral of the story is stop masturbation to stop hairloss. stopping it wont cause any harm the worst is stopping will do nothing why to lose hair knowin that it may cause hairloss or not than knowin that stopping will definitely reduce testosterone levels
I think men that are at all susceptible to androgens tend to get more sensitive to the amount they have over time as they get older. So even as testosterone levels drop your hair is still affected slowly over time. I would be curious to see a long term study of a 100 percent androgen inhibitor to see proof removing all androgens completely stops hairloss for as many years as someone takes it. My hairloss is very very slow, and I really think my androgen levels are lower then average. Over time though it just tends to progress faster and faster as your hair just gets more sensitive to the androgens you will always have some of.
The biological model for propecia supposedly has those hermaphrodites that have AR deficiency and never go bald. They have normal testosterone levels though presumably so testosterone should slowly over time cause them to lose some hair still. If testosterone causes some small amount of damage to hair then really every man over decades of time would lose some hair since we all have some amount of it.
Hi abcdef;
¿have you photos regarding this issue: "hermaphrodites that have AR deficiency and never go bald"?
In this study there is photos of eunuchs
Long-Term Consequences of Castration in Men: Lessons from the Skoptzy and the Eunuchs of the Chinese and Ottoman Courts
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 84/12/4324
Their hair might to be evaluted,.....
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 12/4324/F5
Armando
¿have you photos regarding this issue: "hermaphrodites that have AR deficiency and never go bald"?
In this study there is photos of eunuchs
Long-Term Consequences of Castration in Men: Lessons from the Skoptzy and the Eunuchs of the Chinese and Ottoman Courts
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 84/12/4324
Their hair might to be evaluted,.....
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/conten ... 12/4324/F5
Armando
Those pictures are pretty poor quality and its hard to tell much if anything. Also a lot of that research is not focused on hair and is really old. A lot of that research that is older then 1900 is really not even relevant with how poorly they understood medical science. Its interesting some of them had gyno which some guys on propecia also seem to get.
squeegee
Banned
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The study below has been cited a few times by various people on hairloss sites over the last couple of years, but I've read the whole thing, and I want to present some of the interesting details from it. First of all, here's the abstract:
J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 May;48(5):752-9.
"Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair comparably well on immunodeficient mice"
Krajcik RA, Vogelman JH, Malloy VL, Orentreich N.
"Human hair follicles were grafted onto 2 strains of immunodeficient mice to compare the regeneration potential of vellus (miniaturized, balding) and terminal (hairy, nonbalding) follicles from males and a female exhibiting pattern baldness. Each mouse had transplants of both types of follicles from a single donor for direct comparison. Grafted follicles from 2 male donors resulted in nonsignificant differences in mean length (52 mm vs 54 mm) and mean diameter (99 microm vs 93 microm) at 22 weeks for hairs originating from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, corresponding to 400% versus 62% of the mean pretransplantation diameters. Follicles from the female donor transplanted to several mice also resulted in nonsignificant differences in length (43 mm vs 37 mm) for hairs from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, during a period of 22 weeks. The mean diameter of the originally vellus hairs increased 3-fold, whereas the terminal hairs plateaued at approximately 50% of pretransplantation diameter, resulting in a final balding hair volume double that of the nonbalding hairs. This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same individual."
The abstract gives the salient points: they found that fine vellus hairs from balding human scalps had an EXCEPTIONAL ability to regenerate, when transplanted onto test mice that had severe immune deficiency (they use those for transplant experiments so that the mice don't suffer rejection of the foreign tissue). In fact, after about 5 to 6 months, transplanted follicles with vellus hairs regrew to the same size as the transplanted terminal hairs in one set of mice, and actually grew LARGER than the terminal hairs in another set of mice (for which phenomenon they don't yet have any explanation)! Here's an extended excerpt from the Discussion section at the end in which they speculate about the various implications of their findings:
"...The phenomenon occurring in the xenograft experiments reported here is quite different and dramatic: hypotrophic anagen and telogen hairs from balding scalp exhibiting only vellus hairs in situ regenerate very quickly. By six months, the ratio of the diameters of grafted to pretransplant vellus hairs exceeds 3:1 (Fig 3). Histologic examination of post-transplantation follicles from balding scalp also shows fully developed anagen follicles at six months (Fig 2). The regeneration of vellus follicles occurs just as quickly on male as on female mice (data not shown); this suggests that a factor or factors other than androgen withdrawal may be involved but does not necessarily rule out that differences in androgen levels, availablity, or both between human beings and mice account in part or entirely for the rapid vellus-to-terminal transformation of balding follicles. For instance, the activity of the 5a-R enzyme(s) may be greatly reduced or absent in the transplanted follicles, thereby, limiting exposure of the follicles to DHT. The accelerated transformation of vellus follicles on immunodeficient mice might correspond to responses seen in balding men treated with oral finasteride who are exceptionally good responders. However, in our clinical experience, females with Androgenetic Alopecia, including the female in study II, frequently have normal androgen and androgen-binding globulin levels for their age and sex. It is difficult to argue that lower systemic androgen levels in the female mouse environment (or higher in the male mice) causes the rapid regeneration of vellus hair follicles from the human female. Therefore, the existence of an inhibitor factor other than androgens, particularly in women showing diffuse/pattern alopecia, that is lacking in the nude mouse seems plausible. This could be some other steroid, hormone, cytokine, neuropeptide, or an immunologically related factor."
I think that last part about the "immunologically related factor" is an understatement! After reading this paper, it now seems likely that the immune system is an even bigger factor in male pattern baldness than was previously thought. I personally had always assumed that the putative attack on hair follicles by the immune system was something that happens relatively late in the game, but this study is awfully compelling. But oddly enough, you see very little about this aspect of balding in the medical literature. Dr. Proctor, OTOH, has talked about it for years on alt.baldspot.
So what really is the point of bringing this up in the first place, this issue "Of Mice and Men"?? Well, I think it can be a source of great hope for all of us! It proves that there exists the POTENTIAL for our poor follicles to regenerate completely all on their own, if only we can figure out how to let that happen. It appears that we may not have to wait for far-off and possibly risky genetic treatments, or puzzle-out all those very complex mesenchymal-epithelial interactions (HM, in other words), or depend on other high-tech treatments. We may find simpler, safer ways to do it, with the additional clues provided by this fascinating study.
Such an interesting study! Fascinating!
J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 May;48(5):752-9.
"Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair comparably well on immunodeficient mice"
Krajcik RA, Vogelman JH, Malloy VL, Orentreich N.
"Human hair follicles were grafted onto 2 strains of immunodeficient mice to compare the regeneration potential of vellus (miniaturized, balding) and terminal (hairy, nonbalding) follicles from males and a female exhibiting pattern baldness. Each mouse had transplants of both types of follicles from a single donor for direct comparison. Grafted follicles from 2 male donors resulted in nonsignificant differences in mean length (52 mm vs 54 mm) and mean diameter (99 microm vs 93 microm) at 22 weeks for hairs originating from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, corresponding to 400% versus 62% of the mean pretransplantation diameters. Follicles from the female donor transplanted to several mice also resulted in nonsignificant differences in length (43 mm vs 37 mm) for hairs from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, during a period of 22 weeks. The mean diameter of the originally vellus hairs increased 3-fold, whereas the terminal hairs plateaued at approximately 50% of pretransplantation diameter, resulting in a final balding hair volume double that of the nonbalding hairs. This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same individual."
The abstract gives the salient points: they found that fine vellus hairs from balding human scalps had an EXCEPTIONAL ability to regenerate, when transplanted onto test mice that had severe immune deficiency (they use those for transplant experiments so that the mice don't suffer rejection of the foreign tissue). In fact, after about 5 to 6 months, transplanted follicles with vellus hairs regrew to the same size as the transplanted terminal hairs in one set of mice, and actually grew LARGER than the terminal hairs in another set of mice (for which phenomenon they don't yet have any explanation)! Here's an extended excerpt from the Discussion section at the end in which they speculate about the various implications of their findings:
"...The phenomenon occurring in the xenograft experiments reported here is quite different and dramatic: hypotrophic anagen and telogen hairs from balding scalp exhibiting only vellus hairs in situ regenerate very quickly. By six months, the ratio of the diameters of grafted to pretransplant vellus hairs exceeds 3:1 (Fig 3). Histologic examination of post-transplantation follicles from balding scalp also shows fully developed anagen follicles at six months (Fig 2). The regeneration of vellus follicles occurs just as quickly on male as on female mice (data not shown); this suggests that a factor or factors other than androgen withdrawal may be involved but does not necessarily rule out that differences in androgen levels, availablity, or both between human beings and mice account in part or entirely for the rapid vellus-to-terminal transformation of balding follicles. For instance, the activity of the 5a-R enzyme(s) may be greatly reduced or absent in the transplanted follicles, thereby, limiting exposure of the follicles to DHT. The accelerated transformation of vellus follicles on immunodeficient mice might correspond to responses seen in balding men treated with oral finasteride who are exceptionally good responders. However, in our clinical experience, females with Androgenetic Alopecia, including the female in study II, frequently have normal androgen and androgen-binding globulin levels for their age and sex. It is difficult to argue that lower systemic androgen levels in the female mouse environment (or higher in the male mice) causes the rapid regeneration of vellus hair follicles from the human female. Therefore, the existence of an inhibitor factor other than androgens, particularly in women showing diffuse/pattern alopecia, that is lacking in the nude mouse seems plausible. This could be some other steroid, hormone, cytokine, neuropeptide, or an immunologically related factor."
I think that last part about the "immunologically related factor" is an understatement! After reading this paper, it now seems likely that the immune system is an even bigger factor in male pattern baldness than was previously thought. I personally had always assumed that the putative attack on hair follicles by the immune system was something that happens relatively late in the game, but this study is awfully compelling. But oddly enough, you see very little about this aspect of balding in the medical literature. Dr. Proctor, OTOH, has talked about it for years on alt.baldspot.
So what really is the point of bringing this up in the first place, this issue "Of Mice and Men"?? Well, I think it can be a source of great hope for all of us! It proves that there exists the POTENTIAL for our poor follicles to regenerate completely all on their own, if only we can figure out how to let that happen. It appears that we may not have to wait for far-off and possibly risky genetic treatments, or puzzle-out all those very complex mesenchymal-epithelial interactions (HM, in other words), or depend on other high-tech treatments. We may find simpler, safer ways to do it, with the additional clues provided by this fascinating study.
Such an interesting study! Fascinating!