Colledge Chemistry Student

[CCS]

Ok CCs i guess i will try mixing 12 crushed spironolactone tablets with my revivogen ..Do you think the spironolactone could actually destroy the revivogen and make it not work as well?

Hmmm... I don't know. Those essential fatty acids are more fragile than other fatty acids, though I never heard of a steroid reacting with a fatty acid or vice versa. Steroids are made from fatty acids, though. I think it is more likely one of the other ingrediets in the revivogen might break down the spironolactone, though I heard they removed the zink.

It would be best if you could mix the spironolactone in something else, like alcohol with a sittle white vinegar or fake lemon juice (not too much though), and apply it at the same time you apply the Revivogen. Then you would not have any reaction at all.

Look at it this way: your goal here is to make a stable spironolactone solution that is cheaper that Dr Lee's. If his costed as much as your pills, you'd just apply them and the revivogen at the same time, problem solved. I don't want to advise people to mix experimentals and proven treatments in the same bottle. I doubt you would have trouble, and I think the Revivogen would prserve the spironolactone. But if you really want to be safe, you should make a separate solution.

The other reason you want to combine them is you don't like having two topicals to apply. If you just apply them at the same time, from different bottles, you get around that problem. Apply the revivogen on top of the spironolactone.

 

[CCS]

Here's the MSDS listing the ph at 2.2.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c4730.htm

That's all I could find.

yes, citric acid tends to go to pH 2.2 by buffering. but if you put a drop in the ocean, the water will not be pH 2.2. Similarly, a drop or two in your shampoo will not make it pH 2.2. It is actually a powder, though.

Unfortunately, it is very easy to hit 2.2, but takes care to hit, say, 4.3, and stay there. That is why I hope BHT will preserve vitamin C, which buffers at pH 4.4. Definitely won't make too much. I'll make a full bottle, then put 30mL in the cabinet so it is warm when it hits my head and does not close my pores. Then I'll store the rest in the refridgerator. My 30 mL bottles are clear, so if I see a color change, I'll know not to use it and to replan stuff.

 

[The Gardener]

Hold the horses here... this issue is far more complicated than a proper ph level.

Keep in mind that in order for spironolactone to be effective, it needs to penetrate the skin. This means that the spironolactone needs to be suspended in a vehicle substance, such as alcohol or PPG.

Just because the revivogen might have a vehicle substance in it does not gurantee that the revivogen vehicle substance will also transport the spironolactone into the skin.

My suspicion is that this is a crapshoot. There is a good chance that the spironolactone crushed into the revivogen will be about as beneficial for your hair as a multivitamin crushed into your shampoo would be for your nutrition.

 

[Bryan]

Hold the horses here... this issue is far more complicated than a proper ph level.

Gardener, I think they're mainly discussing the stability of the spironolactone as it sits on a shelf waiting to be used. For that, the pH of the vehicle is indeed an important consideration.

Keep in mind that in order for spironolactone to be effective, it needs to penetrate the skin.

Not necessarily. Not if the main path of absorption of hairloss topicals is by a trans-follicular route. There are studies attesting to the importance of that route.

This means that the spironolactone needs to be suspended in a vehicle substance, such as alcohol or PPG.

Just because the revivogen might have a vehicle substance in it does not gurantee that the revivogen vehicle substance will also transport the spironolactone into the skin.

If Revivogen is still as oily as it used to be (I haven't used it in years), I would imagine that it would dissolve spironolactone reasonably well. My main concern would be that it might react in some way with the spironolactone, as someone else mentioned, or be incompatible in some other way.

 

[Old Baldy]

Here's the MSDS listing the ph at 2.2.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c4730.htm

That's all I could find.

yes, citric acid tends to go to pH 2.2 by buffering. but if you put a drop in the ocean, the water will not be pH 2.2. Similarly, a drop or two in your shampoo will not make it pH 2.2. It is actually a powder, though.

Unfortunately, it is very easy to hit 2.2, but takes care to hit, say, 4.3, and stay there. That is why I hope BHT will preserve vitamin C, which buffers at pH 4.4. Definitely won't make too much. I'll make a full bottle, then put 30mL in the cabinet so it is warm when it hits my head and does not close my pores. Then I'll store the rest in the refridgerator. My 30 mL bottles are clear, so if I see a color change, I'll know not to use it and to replan stuff.

BHT will not stabilize vitamin C.

My advice is to not use vitamin C in anything kept in solution for over 1 week. Even that is stretching it.

I get this opinion from the pros who have written many times about this. It is a generally accepted fact amongst the pros I'm afraid.

Just add citric acid incrementally until you reach your approximate ph level. (I'm not understanding why you think this would be an incorrect way to lower the ph to your desired level?)

Don't use vitamin C College. It won't work IMHO. Too unstable.

You could add vitamin C right at the time of shampooing but that might not achieve what you are trying to do because you want the spironolactone. stabilized right from the start?

College, some pros even go so far as to say dissolving vitamin C, right at the time of application and putting that solution on your skin, can oxidize so quickly that they worry about free radicals being formed on the skin. :freaked:

I've read Doctor Proctor "bragging" about how he has been able to stabilize vitamin C in his Spin Trap product. I don't know if it is that new form of vitamin C that is VERY hard to find? Can't think of the name of it but it's very expensive and hard to find.

I think it might be magnesium ascorbate?

 

[Old Baldy]

Hold the horses here... this issue is far more complicated than a proper ph level.

Keep in mind that in order for spironolactone to be effective, it needs to penetrate the skin. This means that the spironolactone needs to be suspended in a vehicle substance, such as alcohol or PPG.

Just because the revivogen might have a vehicle substance in it does not gurantee that the revivogen vehicle substance will also transport the spironolactone into the skin.

My suspicion is that this is a crapshoot. There is a good chance that the spironolactone crushed into the revivogen will be about as beneficial for your hair as a multivitamin crushed into your shampoo would be for your nutrition.

Gardener: Yes to everything Bryan said.

I do not know near enough about free fatty acids to make any comments on how to make those concoctions, etc. I'm only talking to College about spironolactone. in shampoo.

I've read a little about free fatty acids, after Bryan educated me about them when I first started learning about male pattern baldness, and I simply don't know how you would ever stabilize them. I guess the pros can do it but, man, I don't know. :?

I don't know, maybe I'm not viewing free fatty acid stability properly but it just seems impossible to me unless you suck out all the air from the container and put them into your freezer IMMEDIATELY after making them? And do that EVERY time you open the da** bottle! :shock:

 

[Bryan]

I don't know, maybe I'm not viewing free fatty acid stability properly but it just seems impossible to me unless you suck out all the air from the container and put them into your freezer IMMEDIATELY after making them? And do that EVERY time you open the da** bottle! :shock:

Adding BHT and NDGA (NDGA is said to be the most powerful fatty acid antioxidant of all) should be extremely helpful, and then keeping them in a "collapsible" container of some sort which stays free of air/oxygen, or using Private Preserve Wine Preserver in the container if it's not the collapsible type (this would only be economically practical for large quantities stored for long periods of time), and then keeping the container in the freezer should be sufficient.

 

[CCS]

College, some pros even go so far as to say dissolving vitamin C, right at the time of application and putting that solution on your skin, can oxidize so quickly that they worry about free radicals being formed on the skin. :freaked:

OK, that is disturbing. Which other anti-oxidants will form free radicals on my skin? I can do the citric acid, and probably will get it from those fake lemon juice things.

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan wrote:

Adding BHT and NDGA (NDGA is said to be the most powerful fatty acid antioxidant of all) should be extremely helpful, and then keeping them in a "collapsible" container of some sort which stays free of air/oxygen, or using Private Preserve Wine Preserver in the container if it's not the collapsible type (this would only be economically practical for large quantities stored for long periods of time), and then keeping the container in the freezer should be sufficient.

Makes sense. I use BHT in soaps and creams (and in food oils if they aren't going to be used up in a month). Here's why I always stayed away from NDGA, (look at what it says about hair growth).

http://www.geronova.com/ndga.htm

 

[Old Baldy]

College: I really don't know of any common antioxidants that do that like vitamin C does. There might be some that do, but I've haven't read about any going bad so quickly.

 

[Bryan]

Here's why I always stayed away from NDGA, (look at what it says about hair growth).

http://www.geronova.com/ndga.htm

Frankly, I wouldn't be too concerned about that claim, at least until I know a lot more of the details of how that was determined. I doubt that a minimal concentration of NDGA that's still sufficient to serve as an antioxidant (only in the ~0.005% range) could have a toxic effect on hair follicles.

Furthermore, I'd want to know more about what KIND of hair follicles they're talking about. It's well-known that NDGA is a 5a-reductase inhibitor, so who knows?? Maybe the (alleged) hairgrowth-inhibition has to do with BODY hair, not scalp hair! :wink:

 

[Old Baldy]

Well maybe I'll try to get some NDGA! It probably is facial or body hair but I just don't know for sure. (You know how I can get nit picky with some stuff. )

I have seen some patents where it is a 5AR enzyme inhibitor but I've got dutasteride. for that. :lol: :lol: :shock: