Change in treatments

[TM]

G'day, a new poster from Oz here.

First off, I'd like to say that this is a great site and its helpful to read about other peoples experiences with hairloss and their methods of fighting it.

I've been losing hair since I was 23 and am now nearing 30. In regards to hair loss, I'm extremely lucky as I got onto it right away.

Initially, I was mortified when I realised that I was losing hair. From the age of 18 I grew my hair to a 1/4 of the way down my back until I was 23 when I shaved it to get a real job. I noticed a few stray hairs beneath my hair line but thought nothing of it for weeks until I looked through the family album of pictures of when I was 17 and realised that male pattern baldness had begun. I was a Norwood 2, receding temples and thinning on top.

The 1st treatment I tried was Minoxidil 5% for 2-3 months but quickly grew impatient with the twice daily application. It was summer and I just wanted to get to the beach or pop on the helmet and ride the highways on the motorcycle and the minoxidil just wasn't practical. I also thought that I continued to lose hair (now I think it was probably shedding from the minoxidil itself-didn't give it enough time) so I gave it up quickly due to these two factors.

Next treatment was Propecia. I was on it for 6 years up until June '05. I'm still a Norwood 2, it maintained my hair line and actually thickened my hair again but not to the point it originally was. However, for 95% of those 6 years I popped a pill and didn't worry at all about the hair loss. I can't say I had any problems sexually for most of that time as I always managed to get a firm erection and I can count the failures on 1 hand (they were generally associated with colds & flu). I did get pain in the testes on the odd occasion though.

Anyway, I noticed through this year that my libido was not where it used to be and erections were softer. I used to be the horniest MF around but I felt as though I had lost my mojo. I got onto the net and started reading up on Finasteride and its possible side effects. Consumed with worry, I felt that the drug had finally caught up with me. I was also concerned about its long-term toxicity on the liver & possibile unwanted effects on reproduction. So I decided to ditch it in June and try a new approach to manage hair loss.

I'm now on minoxidil 5% again x 2 applications per day, Nizoral 2% x 2-3 washes per week (thanks to research on websites such as this) and I'm taking Saw Palmetto 160mg x 2 per day as a DHT inhibitor.

So I now a have a few questions to ask:

1 - Do the experienced folk around here think this new regimen will be just as effective at maintaining what I've got? Perhaps grow some more?

2 - Should I ditch the Saw Palmetto and just use the minoxidil and Nizoral?

3 - Are my fears regarding Finasteride unwarranted? I seem to have returned to normal sexually so could it have been the drug, psychological, or a stressful year?

4 - What can I expect with minoxidil on its own without combination with Finasteride?

5 - Are there any long-term users of the Minoxidil-only (not combining with Finasteride) treatment on this site? What are your results with it?

6 - Is it worth taking a smaller dose of Finasteride (such as .25mg or .5mg) everyday to inhibit DHT and still have a meaningful effect on hairloss.

I am shedding again as I've only been on this new treatment plan for 2 months now.

I'm asking for a bit of info, but I have given a bit as well so hopefully some of you may come to the discussion with some helpful input.

cheers.

 

[Goingat20]

1 - Do the experienced folk around here think this new regimen will be just as effective at maintaining what I've got? Perhaps grow some more?

The only products that will help your hair are the minoxidil and nizoral.

2 - Should I ditch the Saw Palmetto and just use the minoxidil and Nizoral?

Yes!

3 - Are my fears regarding Finasteride unwarranted? I seem to have returned to normal sexually so could it have been the drug, psychological, or a stressful year?

This could be the case, maybe you shpuld try lowering your dose.... and see how things go. But definatly try get back on the finasteride

4 - What can I expect with minoxidil on its own without combination with Finasteride?

Slowing down the balding process, but eventually your hair will give in...

5 - Are there any long-term users of the Minoxidil-only (not combining with Finasteride) treatment on this site? What are your results with it?

Yes, many users have given grteat feed back froim minoxidil and vise versa

6 - Is it worth taking a smaller dose of Finasteride (such as .25mg or .5mg) everyday to inhibit DHT and still have a meaningful effect on hairloss.

Certainly. Give this ago asap


goodluck, hope this helped...

 

[Guest]

propecia has maintained your hair. By stopping taking it you are going to lose all of the hair you maintained over that period.

If you had not treated your male pattern baldness at all and you would have been say a NW5 by now, you will end up a NW5 within a year of stopping propecia.

I say get back on it straight away as your current regimen will not save your hair without propecia.

Its up to you and I am goign to be brutally honest here but prepare yourself to lose a massive amount of hair in a relatively short period of time.

 

[Withnail]

That's not the way it was explained to me by my Doctor.

He said if you quit Propecia, say after 5 years, you will start losing your hair again at the same rate as before you started, you won't lose all the hair you would of lost in that 5 years.

I believe with Minoxidil the story is different. Any hair you grow with it is dependent on the minoxidil, so if you quit, that hair quits too.

 

[Guest]

That's not the way it was explained to me by my Doctor.

He said if you quit Propecia, say after 5 years, you will start losing your hair again at the same rate as before you started, you won't lose all the hair you would of lost in that 5 years.

I believe with Minoxidil the story is different. Any hair you grow with it is dependent on the minoxidil, so if you quit, that hair quits too.

Your doctor is wrong.

If you stop taking propecia your hair will revert back to what it would have been if you never took the drug within 12-18months.

Most Doctors no f*** all about Finasteride, Hair loss and its treatments and some have a habit of making stuff up to make themselves look clever.

 

[global]

I've got to say I agree with Withnail on this one, propecia halts the process and prevents further damage to the follicles, when you stop taking it your hairloss will continue at the rate it was falling out before. I can't see how you would get a massive fall-out from NW2 to NW5 in less than a year and I don't think that will happen to TM.

Unless of course he was destined to become a NW5 within a year anyway before starting propecia which may well be the case.

minoxidil on the other hand doesnt stop the damage to the follicles but forces the hair to keep on growing anyway. When you stop minoxidil the hair does fall out very quickly because the follicles are already virtually destroyed and now have no growth stimulant.

Anyway I agree with the fact that I advise you TM to get back on propecia or you will end up much balder, I doubt minoxidil can halt the loss you have been holding back all this time.

Regarding your concerns about propecia I would say this -

1. There is no evidence that finasteride is harmful to the liver, I don't know where you got that from.

2. I think it's doubtful that after all this time finasteride would suddenly start giving you libido problems, maybe its just the fact that your getting older? Remember your 30 now, not 23 like when you started taking it.

If you do decide to not resume propecia I would strongly recommend using a topical anti-androgen like spironolactone aswell as minoxidil or even a topical finasteride solution or both. You can buy them easily on-line for example see this site -

spironolactone & topical finasteride

Good luck.

 

[HairlossTalk]

G'day, a new poster from Oz here.

When I first read this I though "Oh no, Oz brew?" (inside joke)

First off, I'd like to say that this is a great site and its helpful to read about other peoples experiences with hairloss and their methods of fighting it.

Glad it helps!

Next treatment was Propecia. I was on it for 6 years up until June '05. I'm still a Norwood 2, it maintained my hair line and actually thickened my hair again

GOOD to hear positive results. You are in the majority.

I noticed through this year that my libido was not where it used to be and erections were softer. I used to be the horniest MF around but I felt as though I had lost my mojo.

Welcome to being almost 30.

I got onto the net and started reading up on Finasteride and its possible side effects. Consumed with worry, I felt that the drug had finally caught up with me. I was also concerned about its long-term toxicity on the liver & possibile unwanted effects on reproduction.

Sigh. Damn internet and its out of context information. (1) The only way the drug would catch up with you would be by possibly raising your estrogen levels. (2) I've never heard of liver toxicity increasing with continued use of finasteride. You either have liver problems up front and shouldn't take it up front, or you don't up front and can take it long term. (3) The only unwanted effects finasteride has on reproduction are if you are a pregnant female with a male fetus currently in the stage of developing sexual organs in your uterus, and you directly inject 500 times the normal dose into the uterus itself. They feel there is also a risk if you actually are the female and take the pill, but the study was done by injecting 500x the dose directly into a monkey's uterus.

So I decided to ditch it in June and try a new approach to manage hair loss.

Noooooooooooooooooo. :freaked:

I'm taking Saw Palmetto 160mg x 2 per day as a DHT inhibitor.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~~!!!!!!!!! :freaked2:

1 - Do the experienced folk around here think this new regimen will be just as effective at maintaining what I've got? Perhaps grow some more?

No. Finasteride = 83% effectiveness at maintaining 100% of your hair for a minimum of 2 yrs ... 78% effectiveness at maintaining 100% of your hair or growing more for a good 7 years. Minoxidil = 64% chance of maintaining your hair for a maxiumum of 2 to 4 years. As per the studies.

Should I ditch the Saw Palmetto and just use the minoxidil and Nizoral?

Here is my advice. Stick with the Nizoral. Go back on Propecia for 3 months. If you still have libido problems, go to a doctor and request to have your Estrogen levels tested. If your estrogen is way way way too high, then you have a solid reason to discontinue Propecia. Some guys have slightly high estrogen already. Make sure its very high.

If and when you want to try and reproduce the effects of Finasteride I would consider Topical spironolactone 5% lotion + Revivogen.

Simply put you are going to lose nearly all of the hair you maintained on Finasteride if you switch to Minoxidil right now. You are no longer inhibiting DHT. You have roughly 10 to 12 months before the sh*t hits the fan. Curses on the person who told you Saw Palmetto was a "Safe" and side effect free "Natural" alternative to Propecia. Give me his name so I can have some words with him.

Are my fears regarding Finasteride unwarranted? I seem to have returned to normal sexually so could it have been the drug, psychological, or a stressful year?

Your estrogen levels may have been high. Now there is no way to tell unless you go on it again. You may go on it again and have zero problems.

What can I expect with minoxidil on its own without combination with Finasteride?

Unfortunately you can expect to lose all the Propecia dependant hair, and have a 64% chance of regrowing a little.

Are there any long-term users of the Minoxidil-only (not combining with Finasteride) treatment on this site? What are your results with it?

They're in a different situation than you are. They will have minoxidil dependant hair and may have seen decent results with it, but may have had twice the results if they'd been on Finasteride at the time too.

Is it worth taking a smaller dose of Finasteride (such as .25mg or .5mg) everyday to inhibit DHT and still have a meaningful effect on hairloss.

It all depends on you. There is a study that shows continued effectiveness down to that level, but I know when I went from 1mg to 0.75mg I lost a noticeable amount of Finasteride dependant hair.

I am shedding again as I've only been on this new treatment plan for 2 months now.

You're losing Finasteride dependant hair. DHT is attacking your follicles again and all hell is breaking loose.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[HairlossTalk]

He said if you quit Propecia, say after 5 years, you will start losing your hair again at the same rate as before you started, you won't lose all the hair you would of lost in that 5 years.

6 in one, half a dozen in the other.

Technically there's no way of knowing who is right on this. Unless you could tag and mark and monitor every single hair. Without that however, it is literally impossible to say "This hair was lost because of Propecia dependency. This hair was lost because of normal cyclical dormancy. This hair was a hair that SHOULD have been lost 4 yrs ago but wasn't because you were on Propecia".

Impossible to make that determination.

What we do know is what Merck plainly states on its Propecia documentation: You will lose all your "Results" in the 12 months following the stoppage of treatment.

Results then probably means a little of both. Hair you'd maintained and a continuation of normal hair loss progression.

HairLossTalk.com

 

[TM]

Thanks for the feedback. Some of it is alarming!

Well, perhaps my concerns are a little unwarranted regarding finasteride...maybe it is that I'm just an old bastard now, but the drive and firmness have returned recently since I've been off it and taking the Saw Palmetto instead. I've noticed that I ejaculate more semen now than I did when I was on the drug.

i must be honest though and should have mentioned this before but, my consistency with my finasteride dosing has been extremely poor over the last year. i'll skip it for days, start-up again, skipped it for a month when I went OS and started it again & went back to skipping days. No method to it, just sheer laziness. As I've researched a little more, i've found that this could be the cause of my problems. Inconsistant dosing resulting in unstable hormones.

Furthermore, I think I might have a case of Gynecomastica. My breasts are a little enlarged. I do work out in the gym and always thought that my chest size was more due to this. However, I've only just realised that Finasteride might contribute to breast size. My chest isn't lumpy but, it is larger. Could this be a result of the higher Estrogen levels you were eluding to HairLossTalk.com? Does inconsistent dosing of Finasteride (such as skipping days etc) lead to a greater chance of developing gynecomastica? Or simply, will long-term use of finasteride undoubtedly lead to the development of gyno?

I know, it is extremely odd that I have these concerns all of a sudden after 6 years on the drug. Yes, it is the internet, and also, the fact that I'm at that age where I'm thinking of children etc. It has done a good job at maintaining my hair though, that is undeniable.

Just a few more questions guys:

I think I might take a smaller dose (0.5mg of Finasteride) consistently and monitor any progress and side effects. Do any posters have links to credible evidence supporting such a dosage?

Should I continue with the Minoxidil? Lower the dosage to 5% once a day or 2% twice a day as i'm only just starting on it? Or should I hold off it and evaluate my progress on Finasteride only (even at a lower dose such as 0.5mg)?

Will 0.5mg of finasteride be sufficient considering I've been on it for 6 years already? Does the body build a tolerance to the drug?

Once again thanks for the info...I've tried to provide as much as I can as well and hopefully it is beneficial to other hairloss sufferers on currently on finasteride or considering the drug as treatment.

 

[Withnail]

I think you should just do as HairLossTalk.com has suggested.

The guy knows his stuff, this is his website, and you were honored to get such a comprehensive reply.

You say you're working out and now you have an enlarged chest but you probably have bigger muscles everywhere else also. Sometimes you can imagine problems and they miraculously become true (in the mind).

As for the Finasteride, either use it consistently (every day) and not skipping weeks or months or just don't bother with it.

You say you've been on it 6 years with results and no sides (perhaps until recently). This suggests to me you tolerate it very well.