Catequine- the new propecia?
- Thread starter taxi
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taxi said:
If you are thinking about using them as an INTERNAL substance to reduce DHT levels, you have to ask yourself this question:
If they COULD reduce DHT levels systemically to the degree that finasteride does, why would they not generate the same SIDE EFFECTS that we are all bitching about??
So, unless you want to pour red wine on your head (a waste of a precious fluid I might add). I don't see how this can help to any great degree.
We aleady have fatty acids to pour on our scalp.
Good luck!! :lol:
Diddy
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Taking internally would require extreme dosages i would imagine. To obtain even minute dht inhibiting effects from green tea, you have to drink like over 12 glasses a day. Thing is, drinking like 20 glasses of tea a day is a bit excessive. Not only would your teeth look like ***, yet all the caffeine and pesticides used in teas would probably cause problems of their own.
The best next step for hairloss would be a strong local dht inhibitor. Finding alternative systematic inhibitors is kinda useless in my opinion. The sides are mainly caused by the disturbance of Test/Estrogen. Any systematic inhibitor is gonna cause the same effects. Unless people find some other key process in hairloss, hitting DHT locally is the best next place to try
The best next step for hairloss would be a strong local dht inhibitor. Finding alternative systematic inhibitors is kinda useless in my opinion. The sides are mainly caused by the disturbance of Test/Estrogen. Any systematic inhibitor is gonna cause the same effects. Unless people find some other key process in hairloss, hitting DHT locally is the best next place to try
HairlossTalk
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There we go... now you guys are thinkin! 
You'll all be hair biologists in no time.
HairLossTalk.com :book:
You'll all be hair biologists in no time.
HairLossTalk.com :book:
The Gardener
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I would have to agree. I do drink green tea, and red wine, and I even have a tall cup of soy milk each morning (chocked full of flavinoids) but I do not really do this with the intent of reducing DHT. I do it for the anti-oxidant properties these chemicals contain. I am NOT a soy eater, but I do think that adding a serving of it in the morning adds a little variety to my protein intake as well.
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The Gardener said:
Personally, I stay away from as many dietary and environmental estrogens as I can. Soy Milk is a leading offender here.
IMHO
powersam
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as
soy gets a bad rap , the poor little hippie milk. as far as the medical world is concerned plant oestrogen cant turn you into a woman. soy milk is high in plant oestrogen but the human body just doesnt use it. there was speculation at one point that maybe the body would think levels of oestrogen were higher than they were , due to the presence of this benign plant oestrogen and that possibly it could therefore cause lower levels. but this is in no way fact. no idea what the screwed up hormones in certain chicken based fast foods would do to you
soy gets a bad rap , the poor little hippie milk. as far as the medical world is concerned plant oestrogen cant turn you into a woman. soy milk is high in plant oestrogen but the human body just doesnt use it. there was speculation at one point that maybe the body would think levels of oestrogen were higher than they were , due to the presence of this benign plant oestrogen and that possibly it could therefore cause lower levels. but this is in no way fact. no idea what the screwed up hormones in certain chicken based fast foods would do to you
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Re: as
Actually, there is data that supports woman using soy milk to raise their estrogen levels and avoid synthetic hormone estrogens.
Still want to drink Soy Milk? Be my guest.
PowerSam said:
Actually, there is data that supports woman using soy milk to raise their estrogen levels and avoid synthetic hormone estrogens.
Still want to drink Soy Milk? Be my guest.
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soy milk
Phytoestrogens in menopausal women: a review of recent findings]
[Article in French]
Dodin S, Blanchet C, Marc I.
Departement d'obstetrique et de gynecologie, Universite Laval, Hopital St-Francois d'Assise, Centre hospitalier universitaire de Quebec (CHUQ), Quebec, Canada. sylvie.dodin@ogy.ulaval.ca
Many women seek alternatives to hormone replacement therapy (HRT). Phytoestrogens are nonsteroidal compounds with estrogenic or antiestrogenic properties. Six of the 16 clinical trials suggest a significant reduction in alleviating symptoms but to a lesser degree than HRT. A meta-analysis showed that phytoestrogens improve lipid profile. The 14 recent clinical trials led, however, to divergent findings. Small clinical trials suggested a protective effect of phytoestrogens on bone metabolism. High concentration of phytoestrogens was associated with a reduction in breast cancer risk in case-control studies.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial
PMID: 14613019 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Phytoestrogens in menopausal women: a review of recent findings]
[Article in French]
Dodin S, Blanchet C, Marc I.
Departement d'obstetrique et de gynecologie, Universite Laval, Hopital St-Francois d'Assise, Centre hospitalier universitaire de Quebec (CHUQ), Quebec, Canada. sylvie.dodin@ogy.ulaval.ca
Many women seek alternatives to hormone replacement therapy (HRT). Phytoestrogens are nonsteroidal compounds with estrogenic or antiestrogenic properties. Six of the 16 clinical trials suggest a significant reduction in alleviating symptoms but to a lesser degree than HRT. A meta-analysis showed that phytoestrogens improve lipid profile. The 14 recent clinical trials led, however, to divergent findings. Small clinical trials suggested a protective effect of phytoestrogens on bone metabolism. High concentration of phytoestrogens was associated with a reduction in breast cancer risk in case-control studies.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial
PMID: 14613019 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Soy
Potential risks and benefits of phytoestrogen-rich diets.
Cassidy A.
Biosciences Division, Unilever Research, Colworth House, Sharnbrook, Bedfordshire, UK, MK 44 ILQ. aedincassidy@clara.co.uk
Interest in the physiological role of bioactive compounds present in plants has increased dramatically over the last decade. Of particular interest in relation to human health are the class of compounds known as the phytoestrogens, which embody several groups of non-steroidal oestrogens including isoflavones & lignans that are widely distributed within the plant kingdom. Data from animal and in vitro studies provide plausible mechanisms to explain how phytoestrogens may influence hormone dependent states, but although the clinical application of diets rich in these oestrogen mimics is in its infancy, data from preliminary studies suggest potential beneficial effects of importance to health. Phytoestrogens are strikingly similar in chemical structure to the mammalian oestrogen, oestradiol, and bind to oestrogen receptors (ER) with a preference for the more recently described ER beta. This suggests that these compounds may exert tissue specific effects. Numerous other biological effects independent of the ER (e.g. antioxidant capacity, antiproliferative and antiangiogenic effects) have been ascribed to these compounds. Whether phytoestrogens have any biological activity in humans, either hormonal or non hormonal is a contentious issue and there is currently a paucity of data on human exposure. Much of the available data on the absorption and metabolism of dietary phytoestrogens is of a qualitative nature; it is known that dietary phytoestrogens are metabolised by intestinal bacteria, absorbed, conjugated in the liver, circulated in plasma and excreted in urine. Recent studies have addressed quantitatively what happens to isoflavones following ingestion--with pure compound and stable isotope data to compliment recent pharmacokinetic data for soy foods. The limited studies conducted so far in humans clearly confirm that soya isoflavones can exert hormonal effects. These effects may be of benefit in the prevention of many of the common diseases observed in Western populations (such as breast cancer, prostate cancer, menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis) where the diet is typically devoid of these biologically active naturally occurring compounds. However since biological effects are dependent on many factors including dose, duration of use, protein binding affinity, individual metabolism and intrinsic oestrogenic state, further clinical studies are necessary to determine the potential health effects of these compounds in specific population groups. However we currently know little about age related differences in exposure to these compounds and there are few guidelines on optimal dose for specific health outcomes.
Publication Types:
Review
Potential risks and benefits of phytoestrogen-rich diets.
Cassidy A.
Biosciences Division, Unilever Research, Colworth House, Sharnbrook, Bedfordshire, UK, MK 44 ILQ. aedincassidy@clara.co.uk
Interest in the physiological role of bioactive compounds present in plants has increased dramatically over the last decade. Of particular interest in relation to human health are the class of compounds known as the phytoestrogens, which embody several groups of non-steroidal oestrogens including isoflavones & lignans that are widely distributed within the plant kingdom. Data from animal and in vitro studies provide plausible mechanisms to explain how phytoestrogens may influence hormone dependent states, but although the clinical application of diets rich in these oestrogen mimics is in its infancy, data from preliminary studies suggest potential beneficial effects of importance to health. Phytoestrogens are strikingly similar in chemical structure to the mammalian oestrogen, oestradiol, and bind to oestrogen receptors (ER) with a preference for the more recently described ER beta. This suggests that these compounds may exert tissue specific effects. Numerous other biological effects independent of the ER (e.g. antioxidant capacity, antiproliferative and antiangiogenic effects) have been ascribed to these compounds. Whether phytoestrogens have any biological activity in humans, either hormonal or non hormonal is a contentious issue and there is currently a paucity of data on human exposure. Much of the available data on the absorption and metabolism of dietary phytoestrogens is of a qualitative nature; it is known that dietary phytoestrogens are metabolised by intestinal bacteria, absorbed, conjugated in the liver, circulated in plasma and excreted in urine. Recent studies have addressed quantitatively what happens to isoflavones following ingestion--with pure compound and stable isotope data to compliment recent pharmacokinetic data for soy foods. The limited studies conducted so far in humans clearly confirm that soya isoflavones can exert hormonal effects. These effects may be of benefit in the prevention of many of the common diseases observed in Western populations (such as breast cancer, prostate cancer, menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis) where the diet is typically devoid of these biologically active naturally occurring compounds. However since biological effects are dependent on many factors including dose, duration of use, protein binding affinity, individual metabolism and intrinsic oestrogenic state, further clinical studies are necessary to determine the potential health effects of these compounds in specific population groups. However we currently know little about age related differences in exposure to these compounds and there are few guidelines on optimal dose for specific health outcomes.
Publication Types:
Review
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Oestrogen-androgen crosstalk in the pathophysiology of erectile dysfunction.
Adaikan P.
Department of Obstetrics Gynaecology, National University of Singapore, 5 Lower Kent Ridge Road, Singapore 119074. Tel: +65-6772 4128, Fax: +65-6779 4753, Email: obgadaik@nus.edu.sg
Ageing in man is associated with a decline in testosterone following changes in the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis. This may offset the physiologic equilibrium between oestrogen and androgen and at some point when the ratio of free testosterone to oestradiol reaches a critical level, the oestrogenic gonadotropin suppressive effect predominates with decreased release of FSH and LH. Adding to this endocrinal complexity is the continued peripheral conversion to oestradiol through aromatisation. Although the androgen deficiency is not the sole cause for impotence in the elderly, there is a gradual decrease in nocturnal penile tumescence (NPT) and spontaneous morning erections with ageing. Despite the age related increase in oestrogen levels, the information on the pathophysiological role of the "female hormone" in erectile dysfunction has been scanty. Together with our identification of oestrogen receptors within the penile cavernosum, we have delineated dysfunctional changes on male erection mediated by oestradiol. These findings parallel the recent concerns over environmental oestrogens on fertility declines in young men. Oestrogenic activity is also present in plants and thereby in human diet. These phytoestrogens are structurally and functionally similar to oestradiol and more potent than the environmental oestrogenic chemicals such as organochlorine and phenolic compounds. Thus in the light of growing concerns of possible compromising effects on sexuality by endogenous and environmental oestrogens, we are faced with the scientific need to delineate their role on the mechanism of male erectile pathway in health and disease for clinical correlates and prognostics.
PMID: 14695981 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Oestrogen-androgen crosstalk in the pathophysiology of erectile dysfunction.
Adaikan P.
Department of Obstetrics Gynaecology, National University of Singapore, 5 Lower Kent Ridge Road, Singapore 119074. Tel: +65-6772 4128, Fax: +65-6779 4753, Email: obgadaik@nus.edu.sg
Ageing in man is associated with a decline in testosterone following changes in the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis. This may offset the physiologic equilibrium between oestrogen and androgen and at some point when the ratio of free testosterone to oestradiol reaches a critical level, the oestrogenic gonadotropin suppressive effect predominates with decreased release of FSH and LH. Adding to this endocrinal complexity is the continued peripheral conversion to oestradiol through aromatisation. Although the androgen deficiency is not the sole cause for impotence in the elderly, there is a gradual decrease in nocturnal penile tumescence (NPT) and spontaneous morning erections with ageing. Despite the age related increase in oestrogen levels, the information on the pathophysiological role of the "female hormone" in erectile dysfunction has been scanty. Together with our identification of oestrogen receptors within the penile cavernosum, we have delineated dysfunctional changes on male erection mediated by oestradiol. These findings parallel the recent concerns over environmental oestrogens on fertility declines in young men. Oestrogenic activity is also present in plants and thereby in human diet. These phytoestrogens are structurally and functionally similar to oestradiol and more potent than the environmental oestrogenic chemicals such as organochlorine and phenolic compounds. Thus in the light of growing concerns of possible compromising effects on sexuality by endogenous and environmental oestrogens, we are faced with the scientific need to delineate their role on the mechanism of male erectile pathway in health and disease for clinical correlates and prognostics.
PMID: 14695981 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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Significance of oestrogens in male (patho)physiology.
Gooren LJ, Toorians AW.
Department of Endocrinology, section Andrologie, Vrije Universiteit Medical Center, P.O. Box 7057, 1007 MB Amsterdam, The Netherlands. ljg.gooren@vumc.nl
Traditionally conceptualized as 'female hormones', oestrogens appear to have significant effects in the male biological system. Favorable effects have been noted on bone, brain and cardiovascular physiology while a potential role in the prostate pathology of the aging male has been seriously suspected. Oestrogens in male are predominantly the products of peripheral aromatization of testicular and adrenal androgens. While the testicular and adrenal production of androgens declines with aging, levels of total plasma oestradiol do not decline. This is to be ascribed to the common increase in fat mass with aging (the substrate of peripheral aromatization) and an increased aromatase activity with aging. But free or bioavailable oestrogens may decline due to an increase in sex hormone binding globulin. Oestrogens produce significant beneficial effects on skeletal growth and bone maturation. In old age oestrogens are better predictors of bone fractures than androgens. Oestrogens exert effects on the brain: on cognitive function, co-ordination of movement, pain and affective state, and are maybe protective of Alzheimer's disease. Oestrogen effects on the cardiovascular system include those on lipid profiles, fat distribution, endocrine/paracrine factors produced by the vascular wall (such as endothelins, nitric oxide), blood platelets, inflammatory factors and coagulation. The potentially adverse effects of oestrogens on the prostate may be due to a shift in the oestrogen / androgen ratio with aging. Sources of estrogens in men are endogenous androgens, or in case of androgen deficiency, exogenous androgens. Dietary phytoestrogens or selective estrogen receptor modulators, as drugs, may be significant as well.
Publication Types:
Significance of oestrogens in male (patho)physiology.
Gooren LJ, Toorians AW.
Department of Endocrinology, section Andrologie, Vrije Universiteit Medical Center, P.O. Box 7057, 1007 MB Amsterdam, The Netherlands. ljg.gooren@vumc.nl
Traditionally conceptualized as 'female hormones', oestrogens appear to have significant effects in the male biological system. Favorable effects have been noted on bone, brain and cardiovascular physiology while a potential role in the prostate pathology of the aging male has been seriously suspected. Oestrogens in male are predominantly the products of peripheral aromatization of testicular and adrenal androgens. While the testicular and adrenal production of androgens declines with aging, levels of total plasma oestradiol do not decline. This is to be ascribed to the common increase in fat mass with aging (the substrate of peripheral aromatization) and an increased aromatase activity with aging. But free or bioavailable oestrogens may decline due to an increase in sex hormone binding globulin. Oestrogens produce significant beneficial effects on skeletal growth and bone maturation. In old age oestrogens are better predictors of bone fractures than androgens. Oestrogens exert effects on the brain: on cognitive function, co-ordination of movement, pain and affective state, and are maybe protective of Alzheimer's disease. Oestrogen effects on the cardiovascular system include those on lipid profiles, fat distribution, endocrine/paracrine factors produced by the vascular wall (such as endothelins, nitric oxide), blood platelets, inflammatory factors and coagulation. The potentially adverse effects of oestrogens on the prostate may be due to a shift in the oestrogen / androgen ratio with aging. Sources of estrogens in men are endogenous androgens, or in case of androgen deficiency, exogenous androgens. Dietary phytoestrogens or selective estrogen receptor modulators, as drugs, may be significant as well.
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Early exposure to genistein exerts long-lasting effects on the endocrine and immune systems in rats.
Klein SL, Wisniewski AB, Marson AL, Glass GE, Gearhart JP.
The W. Harry Feinstone Department of Molecular Microbiology and Immunology, The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland 21205, USA. saklein@jhsph.edu
BACKGROUND: Although the immunologic effects of endogenous and synthetic estrogens are well studied, few studies have examined the hormonal effects of phytoestrogens (i.e., plant-derived estrogens) on the immune system. The primary goal of this study was to compare the effects of perinatal exposure with life-long exposure to genistein, an estrogenic compound in soy, on the endocrine and immune system in adulthood. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Pregnant female rats were exposed to no, low (5 mg/kg diet), or high (300 mg/kg diet) genistein diets throughout gestation and lactation. At weaning, male offspring exposed to genistein perinatally were either switched to the genistein-free diet or remained on the genistein-dosed diets. At 70 days of age, immune organ masses, lymphocyte subpopulations, cytokine concentrations, and testosterone concentrations were assessed in male offspring. RESULTS: Data were analyzed based on the diets that males were exposed to during gestation and lactation because life-long exposure to genistein had no additional effect on any of the dependent measures. Relative thymus masses were greater among males exposed to the high genistein diet than among males exposed to no genistein. Although the proportions of splenic and thymic CD4+ T cells were not altered by genistein, the percentages of CD4+CD8+ thymocytes, CD8+ splenocytes, and total T cells in the spleen were higher and the percentages of CD4-CD8- thymocytes were lower among males exposed to genistein than among males not exposed to genistein. Synthesis of interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) was marginally higher and testosterone concentrations were lower among genistein-exposed than genistein-free males. DISCUSSION: These data illustrate that exposure to genistein during pregnancy and lactation exerts long-lasting effects on the endocrine and immune systems in adulthood. Whether exposure to phytoestrogens during early development affects responses to infectious or autoimmune diseases, as well as cancers, later in life requires investigation.
PMID: 12520091 [PubMed - indexed for
Early exposure to genistein exerts long-lasting effects on the endocrine and immune systems in rats.
Klein SL, Wisniewski AB, Marson AL, Glass GE, Gearhart JP.
The W. Harry Feinstone Department of Molecular Microbiology and Immunology, The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, Maryland 21205, USA. saklein@jhsph.edu
BACKGROUND: Although the immunologic effects of endogenous and synthetic estrogens are well studied, few studies have examined the hormonal effects of phytoestrogens (i.e., plant-derived estrogens) on the immune system. The primary goal of this study was to compare the effects of perinatal exposure with life-long exposure to genistein, an estrogenic compound in soy, on the endocrine and immune system in adulthood. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Pregnant female rats were exposed to no, low (5 mg/kg diet), or high (300 mg/kg diet) genistein diets throughout gestation and lactation. At weaning, male offspring exposed to genistein perinatally were either switched to the genistein-free diet or remained on the genistein-dosed diets. At 70 days of age, immune organ masses, lymphocyte subpopulations, cytokine concentrations, and testosterone concentrations were assessed in male offspring. RESULTS: Data were analyzed based on the diets that males were exposed to during gestation and lactation because life-long exposure to genistein had no additional effect on any of the dependent measures. Relative thymus masses were greater among males exposed to the high genistein diet than among males exposed to no genistein. Although the proportions of splenic and thymic CD4+ T cells were not altered by genistein, the percentages of CD4+CD8+ thymocytes, CD8+ splenocytes, and total T cells in the spleen were higher and the percentages of CD4-CD8- thymocytes were lower among males exposed to genistein than among males not exposed to genistein. Synthesis of interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) was marginally higher and testosterone concentrations were lower among genistein-exposed than genistein-free males. DISCUSSION: These data illustrate that exposure to genistein during pregnancy and lactation exerts long-lasting effects on the endocrine and immune systems in adulthood. Whether exposure to phytoestrogens during early development affects responses to infectious or autoimmune diseases, as well as cancers, later in life requires investigation.
PMID: 12520091 [PubMed - indexed for
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The phenotype of the aromatase knockout mouse reveals dietary phytoestrogens impact significantly on testis function.
Robertson KM, O'Donnell L, Simpson ER, Jones ME.
Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Clayton, 3168 Victoria, Australia.
Estrogen is synthesized in the testis, both in Leydig cells and seminiferous epithelium, and its importance in spermatogenesis is highlighted by the phenotype of the aromatase knockout (ArKO) mouse. These mice are unable to synthesize endogenous estrogens. The males develop postmeiotic defects by 18 wk of age. We hypothesized that maintenance of spermatogenesis in younger animals may be mediated by exogenous estrogenic substances. Dietary soy meal, contained in almost all commercial rodent diets, provides a source of estrogenic isoflavones. We thus investigated spermatogenesis in wild-type and ArKO mice raised on a diet containing soy, compared with a soy-free diet, to elucidate the biological action of phytoestrogens on the testis. In ArKO mice, dietary phytoestrogens could partially prevent disruptions to spermatogenesis, in that they prevented the decline in germ cell numbers. They also seemed to maintain Sertoli cell function, and they blocked elevations in FSH. The impairment of spermatogenesis seen in soy-free ArKOs occurred in the absence of a decreased gonadotropic stimulus, suggesting that the effects of dietary phytoestrogens are independent of changes to the pituitary-gonadal axis. Our study highlights the importance of estrogen in spermatogenesis and shows that relatively low levels of dietary phytoestrogens have a biological effect in the testis.
The phenotype of the aromatase knockout mouse reveals dietary phytoestrogens impact significantly on testis function.
Robertson KM, O'Donnell L, Simpson ER, Jones ME.
Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Clayton, 3168 Victoria, Australia.
Estrogen is synthesized in the testis, both in Leydig cells and seminiferous epithelium, and its importance in spermatogenesis is highlighted by the phenotype of the aromatase knockout (ArKO) mouse. These mice are unable to synthesize endogenous estrogens. The males develop postmeiotic defects by 18 wk of age. We hypothesized that maintenance of spermatogenesis in younger animals may be mediated by exogenous estrogenic substances. Dietary soy meal, contained in almost all commercial rodent diets, provides a source of estrogenic isoflavones. We thus investigated spermatogenesis in wild-type and ArKO mice raised on a diet containing soy, compared with a soy-free diet, to elucidate the biological action of phytoestrogens on the testis. In ArKO mice, dietary phytoestrogens could partially prevent disruptions to spermatogenesis, in that they prevented the decline in germ cell numbers. They also seemed to maintain Sertoli cell function, and they blocked elevations in FSH. The impairment of spermatogenesis seen in soy-free ArKOs occurred in the absence of a decreased gonadotropic stimulus, suggesting that the effects of dietary phytoestrogens are independent of changes to the pituitary-gonadal axis. Our study highlights the importance of estrogen in spermatogenesis and shows that relatively low levels of dietary phytoestrogens have a biological effect in the testis.
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Re: as
Do you want to review some of these studies and re-assess your position on plant based oestrogen? :lol:
PowerSam said:
Do you want to review some of these studies and re-assess your position on plant based oestrogen? :lol:
tea tea tea
Please bruce, translate that...
So, about tea... I don't drink green tea, only black. (6 cups per day). by only drinking tea I won't stand a chance, right? so there is no way of sufering side efects ( like decrease libido) by drinking6 or 7 cups of tea.. I already take Propecia. that's my only concern. thanks guys
Please bruce, translate that...
So, about tea... I don't drink green tea, only black. (6 cups per day). by only drinking tea I won't stand a chance, right? so there is no way of sufering side efects ( like decrease libido) by drinking6 or 7 cups of tea.. I already take Propecia. that's my only concern. thanks guys
G
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Guest
Re: tea tea tea
Well first of all keep in mind there is a lot of theory here. Having said that, it is my understanding that the use of soy extracts and other forms of concentrated soy deliver tons of these phyto estrogens. Ditto flax seed oil.
Diluted tea is pretty weak in this area. I drink it but not 7 cups a day. Just dont like it that much.
taxi said:
Well first of all keep in mind there is a lot of theory here. Having said that, it is my understanding that the use of soy extracts and other forms of concentrated soy deliver tons of these phyto estrogens. Ditto flax seed oil.
Diluted tea is pretty weak in this area. I drink it but not 7 cups a day. Just dont like it that much.