Can you cycle finasteride to maintain effectiveness?

Aplunk1

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So if finasteride DOES affect our bodies in such as way as to CREATE a TOLERANCE... then wouldn't it be reasonable to cycle treatment with finasteride. It's never been studied.

Once tolerance develops, much like many other substances (except progressive diseases like alcoholism, and heroin abuse), can't we cycle off Finasteride and then resume several months down the line to keep our results?
 

Weepy

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Aplunk1 said:
So if finasteride DOES affect our bodies in such as way as to CREATE a TOLERANCE... then wouldn't it be reasonable to cycle treatment with finasteride. It's never been studied.

Once tolerance develops, much like many other substances (except progressive diseases like alcoholism, and heroin abuse), can't we cycle off Finasteride and then resume several months down the line to keep our results?

This is not the way it works. Further, manipulating your hormone levels in this way could and probably will do far more damage than good. In fact, it could trigger the very "tolerance" we've been discussing. Cycling finasteride is a very dangerous idea in my opinion.

Part of the reason why you are balding is because your genes are expressing androgen receptor density, rendering you more "sensitive" to DHT in the familiar male pattern baldness pattern. As far as I know, the actual, individual "receptor sensitivity" to DHT (Kd) does not change. All of this is in addition to any increase of T->DHT.

Again, it is the receptor, and not DHT, that is the central issue. Binding of DHT to the receptor causes an influx of ions. This influx begins a cascade of events that lead to the balding process.

Upregulation of the receptor gene seems like a plausable explanation for this "finasteride tolerance." You are "more sensitive" to DHT, because you have more receptor density -- in spite of the fact that finasteride will continue to supress DHT at unusually low levels.
 

Aplunk1

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Thank you for that.

This is a great post, and I can see how it might play out. What type of treatments, if any, could further help reduce androgen receptor sensitivity?

I'm assuming Nizoral probably helps this, but wouldn't oral spironolactone then help in conjunction with Finasteride? Or would that do more harm than good, seeing as how Gyno could develop?
 

Weepy

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Nizoral is reputed to be a mild antiandrogen and should help. I don't know anything about oral spironolactone.

This is a genetic disease. Tis is aprt of what makes it so difficult to treat. The medications we are using, as well as the medications you are talking about, attack the problem in a relatively oblique fashion. They are effective, but they do not solve the root problem. If we were a deletion mutant for this gene, i.e., lacking androgen receptor, we'd not have a problem at all. In fact, we could be "flooded with DHT," and would not grow bald, simply because there would be no receptor to bind the hormone.
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
Aplunk1 said:
So if finasteride DOES affect our bodies in such as way as to CREATE a TOLERANCE... then wouldn't it be reasonable to cycle treatment with finasteride. It's never been studied.

Once tolerance develops, much like many other substances (except progressive diseases like alcoholism, and heroin abuse), can't we cycle off Finasteride and then resume several months down the line to keep our results?

This is not the way it works. Further, manipulating your hormone levels in this way could and probably will do far more damage than good. In fact, it could trigger the very "tolerance" we've been discussing. Cycling finasteride is a very dangerous idea in my opinion.

Part of the reason why you are balding is because your genes are expressing androgen receptor density, rendering you more "sensitive" to DHT in the familiar male pattern baldness pattern. As far as I know, the actual, individual "receptor sensitivity" to DHT (Vmax) does not change. All of this is in addition to any increase of T->DHT.

Can you clarify your statement about receptor sensitivity with respect to the reaction velocity of the androgen receptor complex formation?
 

Weepy

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You're right. My bad. I meant to say Km, or rather Kd (dissociation constant) I am thinking of ligand binding as described by simple michaelis-menten kintics... I will change.
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
Aplunk1 said:
So if finasteride DOES affect our bodies in such as way as to CREATE a TOLERANCE... then wouldn't it be reasonable to cycle treatment with finasteride. It's never been studied.

Once tolerance develops, much like many other substances (except progressive diseases like alcoholism, and heroin abuse), can't we cycle off Finasteride and then resume several months down the line to keep our results?

This is not the way it works.

What is not the way it works?

Weepy said:
Further, manipulating your hormone levels in this way could and probably will do far more damage than good.

Evidence?


Weepy said:
In fact, it could trigger the very "tolerance" we've been discussing.

What tolerance have we been discussing? Tolerance means that a drug's effect is reduced. It is not restricted to any particular mechanism (e.g., it could be caused by elevated hepatic enzyme concentration or feedback driven regulation of the target receptor).


It sounds like you are blowing smoke, but I will reserve judgement...
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
You're right. My bad. I meant to say Km, or rather Kd (dissociation constant) I am thinking of ligand binding as described by simple michaelis-menten kintics... I will change.

Even still, that's part of the reaction rate equilibrium of the receptor complex formation. What is the specific importance of that reaction with respect to the general concept of receptor sensitivity?
 

Weepy

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Dave001 said:
Weepy said:
Aplunk1 said:
So if finasteride DOES affect our bodies in such as way as to CREATE a TOLERANCE... then wouldn't it be reasonable to cycle treatment with finasteride. It's never been studied.

Once tolerance develops, much like many other substances (except progressive diseases like alcoholism, and heroin abuse), can't we cycle off Finasteride and then resume several months down the line to keep our results?

This is not the way it works.

What is not the way it works?

I am actually refercing this and other posts where we've been discussing "tolerance." That's this whole post is about, actually.

Dave001 said:
Weepy said:
Further, manipulating your hormone levels in this way could and probably will do far more damage than good.

Evidence?

It doesn't take a study to know that going on and off finasteride at "cycles" is far from healthy. Further, you haven't any evidence that "cycling" would be of any benefit. IMO, it would be irresponsible for me to tell someone to dose this drug according to some as yet defined schedule.

Dave001 said:
Weepy said:
In fact, it could trigger the very "tolerance" we've been discussing.

What tolerance have we been discussing? Tolerance means that a drug's effect is reduced. It is not restricted to any particular mechanism (e.g., it could be caused by elevated hepatic enzyme concentration or feedback driven regulation of the target receptor).

Apparently, you've come late to the discussion. See above.
 

Weepy

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Dave001 said:
Weepy said:
You're right. My bad. I meant to say Km, or rather Kd (dissociation constant) I am thinking of ligand binding as described by simple michaelis-menten kintics... I will change.

Even still, that's part of the reaction rate equilibrium of the receptor complex formation. What is the specific importance of that reaction with respect to the general concept of receptor sensitivity?

Do you not know what Km actually signifies? It is the relative affinity -- "sensitivity" -- an enzyme (or in this case receptor) has for a given ligand/molecule. I have NO idea what "sensitivity" you're refering to when you say this:

Dave001 said:
I'm referring to the sensitivity of the androgen receptor. And 5 alpha-reductase expression has also been shown to increase following administration of finasteride.

In the simple monovalent ligand binding model I am referencing, Kd is a measure of binding sensitivity. I am not talking about rocket science -- M-M kinetics is about as stupid as you can be and taken seriously.
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
Dave001 said:
Weepy said:
You're right. My bad. I meant to say Km, or rather Kd (dissociation constant) I am thinking of ligand binding as described by simple michaelis-menten kintics... I will change.

Even still, that's part of the reaction rate equilibrium of the receptor complex formation. What is the specific importance of that reaction with respect to the general concept of receptor sensitivity?

Do you not know what Km actually signifies?

It is the "Michaelis-Menten constant" (of which the value is equal to the substrate concentration at Vmax/2 of the reaction rate) in the context Michaelis–Menten kinetics. It can refer to other things in different contexts.

Weepy said:
It is the relative affinity -- "sensitivity" -- an enzyme (or in this case receptor) has for a given ligand/molecule. I have NO idea what "sensitivity" you're refering to when you say this:

Dave001 said:
I'm referring to the sensitivity of the androgen receptor. And 5 alpha-reductase expression has also been shown to increase following administration of finasteride.

Read the first part as the sensitivity of androgen responsive tissue instead of the androgen receptor per se.

Weepy said:
In the simple monovalent ligand binding model I am referencing, Kd is a measure of binding sensitivity. I am not talking about rocket science -- M-M kinetics is about as stupid as you can be and taken seriously.

Conversely, you need a lot more than a simple kinetic equation to be taken seriously; you need to establish a context prior to bandying reaction constants.
 

Weepy

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I have no idea what the point of your posts is except for you to make meaningless, kabitzing comments.
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
I have no idea what the point of your posts is except for you to make meaningless, kabitzing comments.

I can tell. BTW, it's kibitzing.
 

Dave001

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Wang, L. G., X. M. Liu, et al. (1999). "Phosphorylation/Dephosphorylation of Androgen Receptor as a Determinant of Androgen Agonistic or Antagonistic Activity." Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications 259(1): 21.

Abstract: Protein phosphorylation/dephosphorylation is an important posttranslational modification that plays a critical role in signal transduction. The androgen receptor (AR) is under such control. We demonstrate that androgen receptor phosphorylation determines whether or not AR ligands perform as agonists or antagonists in LNCaP cells. Androgen receptor ligands (such as dihydrotestosterone and [beta]-estradiol) stimulate receptor expression and phosphorylation and, as a result, they act as agonists or partial agonists. In contrast, agents such as bicalutamide and estramustine inhibit the receptor phosphorylation and act as antagonists. This model is supported by gene expression and transactivation assays. Significant increases in levels of both mRNA and protein of prostate-specific antigen (PSA), a natural AR target gene, occur following the treatment of LNCaP cells with DHT, [beta]-estradiol, or hydroxyflutamide. In contrast, exposure of LNCaP cells to bicalutamide or estramustine results in a sharp decrease of PSA expression. Agonistic or antagonistic effect of these compounds on PSA expression parallels the level of phosphorylated, but not dephosphorylated androgen receptors. These agonistic or antagonistic effects are also observed in HeLa cells transfected with wild-type AR expression plasmid (pAR0) and AR-driven luciferase expression plasmid GRE-tk-LUC in the presence of different groups of AR blockers. Our data indicate that the functional status of androgen receptors is strongly correlated with the phosphorylation status of the receptors, and that the phosphorylated androgen receptor is the form of the receptor transcriptionally active in regulation. Thus the androgen receptor phosphorylation/dephosphorylation may serve as a new molecular target for screening androgen antagonists for the treatment of prostate cancer.
 

Weepy

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Unbelievably irrelvant to this discussion. We were talking about kinetics. Phosphlrylation is not a big deal, cnsider RTKs. This is a common marker. I can't believe you actually posted this abstract as evidence of... what?

Dave001 said:
Wang, L. G., X. M. Liu, et al. (1999). "Phosphorylation/Dephosphorylation of Androgen Receptor as a Determinant of Androgen Agonistic or Antagonistic Activity." Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications 259(1): 21.

Abstract: Protein phosphorylation/dephosphorylation is an important posttranslational modification that plays a critical role in signal transduction. The androgen receptor (AR) is under such control. We demonstrate that androgen receptor phosphorylation determines whether or not AR ligands perform as agonists or antagonists in LNCaP cells. Androgen receptor ligands (such as dihydrotestosterone and [beta]-estradiol) stimulate receptor expression and phosphorylation and, as a result, they act as agonists or partial agonists. In contrast, agents such as bicalutamide and estramustine inhibit the receptor phosphorylation and act as antagonists. This model is supported by gene expression and transactivation assays. Significant increases in levels of both mRNA and protein of prostate-specific antigen (PSA), a natural AR target gene, occur following the treatment of LNCaP cells with DHT, [beta]-estradiol, or hydroxyflutamide. In contrast, exposure of LNCaP cells to bicalutamide or estramustine results in a sharp decrease of PSA expression. Agonistic or antagonistic effect of these compounds on PSA expression parallels the level of phosphorylated, but not dephosphorylated androgen receptors. These agonistic or antagonistic effects are also observed in HeLa cells transfected with wild-type AR expression plasmid (pAR0) and AR-driven luciferase expression plasmid GRE-tk-LUC in the presence of different groups of AR blockers. Our data indicate that the functional status of androgen receptors is strongly correlated with the phosphorylation status of the receptors, and that the phosphorylated androgen receptor is the form of the receptor transcriptionally active in regulation. Thus the androgen receptor phosphorylation/dephosphorylation may serve as a new molecular target for screening androgen antagonists for the treatment of prostate cancer.
 

Weepy

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Okay, simple challenge to you "dave." What is the actual significance of de/phosphorylation in this expermient.
 

Adrian1

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I guess this is what the main character in Tron felt like when he woke up inside the video game. Totally !*#%&*' lost!

How about we smoke the peace pipe on this one?
 

Dave001

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Weepy said:
Unbelievably irrelvant to this discussion. We were talking about kinetics. This is an abstract on signal transduction.

Are you really that f*****g stupid? So what if it's on signal transduction? I don't care if it's about baking chocolate chip cookies, if it says something important. You probably didn't even read the paper. Further, we weren't talking about anything. You started to say something about reaction kinetics, but cowered in fear once you became aware of the transparency of your ignorance.

Weepy said:
Phosphlrylation is not a big deal, cnsider RTKs. This is a common marker.

Learn how to complete a thought. Ever better: FOAD. But do it quietly and spare the world of your painfully mediocre intellect.
 
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