Can we have a succinct thread on the latest needling knowledge re: Folica, depth, # of holes per cm2 etc?

[fugged]

Hi Everyone,

I was hoping to revisit the folica patent post (which I somehow missed) / depth of needling conversation, if anyone is knowledgable or interested? I have been messing around with needling now for something like 2 years, first with rollers, then a D2, and generally never got tremendous for results. However, a few times, I felt like something clicked and made my hair stronger, and shed less. Initially I felt like this improvement came after my first deeper 1.5 mm session... I read an article, I believe on perfect hair health, that was in essence surmising that most studies were in between 1.5-2.5 mm. (I think). So, I have been doing 2mm with a D2 every 2 weeks for 2 months, with the general goal of 2 passes in each area, which has been hard to be precise with.

Results honestly aren't very good, hair seems to be slightly worse at the moment after a respite from shedding but more importantly, feels thinner, deader, and when I pull many they come out painlessly without much bulb. This seems an odd turn since I felt like just switching to a D2 a year ago was initially helping at least a little in the pull-hair-feel-pain test. And I have felt like I DID have some magic moments where the hair really felt better rooted, more pert, and stronger! So now Im thinking Im going too deep lately.

Another thing Ive experienced is less bleeding, even despite increasing needling depth, through time, which seems very contradictory to me if angiogenesis is happening.. seems the opposite is.

Are we still trying for that insane 1600 holes per cm2? Apologies if IM way too out of the loop, and gratitude for any clarity on the latest in the matter. After reading through the first 5 pages of the Follica patent thread, Im inclined to try shallower, and for, I guess 1600 per cm2.

Thank you!!!!

 

[coolio]

Trying to poke 1600 holes into a single cm2 of skin is impractical.

And I think that's what we need to understand about it. You wouldn't do that many holes if you wanted a piece of skin with holes in it. You would do that if you wanted the whole surface of the skin destroyed. Like somebody went over it with a tiny jackhammer.

 

[fugged]

So what are we to make of this entire follica thing? What ever became of the shallower, make all these holes, have a different feel to the scalp afterward people? Have people totally dropped it out of impracticality?

I could see insulin syringe size/type needles possibly being more practical that the sturdy D2 needles, fragility notwithstanding, but is there anything we are still gleaning from all of Follicas patent and that conversation?

Coollio do you needle and if so how/what?

 

[coolio]

I don't currently needle. I've done stints of it in the past.

I think Follica's needling protocol may have more in common with dermabrasion than it does with needling (in terms of hair effects). They are using needles but they are trying to carpet-bomb the skin more like an abrasion wound. Real dermabrasion is serious business. You can't go doing that to the same area of skin repeatedly like you can with needling protocols. But it has been observed to create occasional all-new hair follicles. It's a known thing that can happen.

BTW, don't confuse dermabrasion with microdermabrasion. Those are different severities of injury.

 

[fugged]

by dermabrasion, you mean like abrading, scraping the scalp? Like a bike accident/road rash? How is this possible with any hair? I assume hence the needling. interesting you dropped it altogether

 

[Redgate]

I think Follica have failed. I doubt they'll pursue it as a serious remedy against male pattern baldness as it's been out for around 24 months and no one has managed to get results using the same method.

Their phase 2 results, released June 2020, were very positive (over 40% improvement in non-vellus hair) and they're starting/have started phase 3 trials, so they're pursuing it.

 

[pegasus2]

Just stick with the Follica protocol in the patent. I've tried many different ways of needling and I don't think anything worked better than the strict Follica protocol.

Don't go overboard either. Dermabrasion doesn't work nearly as well according to the data in the Follica pdf. Quorum sending doesn't happen if all of the skin is completely destroyed so you get less hair

 

[coolio]

by dermabrasion, you mean like abrading, scraping the scalp? Like a bike accident/road rash? How is this possible with any hair? I assume hence the needling. interesting you dropped it altogether

I don't mean to encourage anyone to do dermabrasion. Follica's protocol seems superior to either dermabrasion or the more conventional needling protocols.

Dermabrasion is a heavy-duty skin resurfacing treatment. It's for the face. It's not a hair loss treatment. But docs have observed cases of new scalp-type hairs being created by it. (As in, a few scattered new follicles. It DOES NOT produce enough hair to be cosmetically useful. It's only interesting as a proof-of-concept.)


I don't do much to fight hair loss these days. My loss is very slow and I'm older than some of you guys. The existing treatments just aren't very effective in the big picture. There isn't much return on the effort, at least for me. If I was 21yo and thinning out rapidly in a big Norwood pattern then I would be working a lot harder to fight it.

 

[fugged]

Just stick with the Follica protocol in the patent. I've tried many different ways of needling and I don't think anything worked better than the strict Follica protocol.

Don't go overboard either. Dermabrasion doesn't work nearly as well according to the data in the Follica pdf. Quorum sending doesn't happen if all of the skin is completely destroyed so you get less hair

How, if I may ask do you achieve the Follica protocol? thank you

 

[pegasus2]

How, if I may ask do you achieve the Follica protocol? thank you

First post of the follica patent. 1,600 wounds/cm² at .75-1mm depth. The time it takes to achieve that will vary according to the speed of the microneedling device.

 

[Renegade000]

First post of the follica patent. 1,600 wounds/cm² at .75-1mm depth. The time it takes to achieve that will vary according to the speed of the microneedling device.

Do you know how long that should take on the entire scalp with a Derminator on ‘fast’ mode?

 

[fugged]

First post of the follica patent. 1,600 wounds/cm² at .75-1mm depth. The time it takes to achieve that will vary according to the speed of the microneedling device.

I guess I was asking about more specifics, like machine, technique, stuff like that?

 

[yayapapaya]

2mm?! You might be doing more harm than good.

 

[pegasus2]

According to George Cotsarelis it could be ready by 2013

I think they were trying and trying to come up with a more effective method that was safe. It was taking too long so they threw in the the towel and settled for microneedling+minoxidil. Now they look to be getting closer to a more perfect solution with their latest patent, but they'll have to start over again at phase I for Follica 2.0. In the meantime at least they'll be generating revenue soon.

 

[coolio]

I think they were trying and trying to come up with a more effective method that was safe. It was taking too long so they threw in the the towel and settled for microneedling+minoxidil. Now they look to be getting closer to a more perfect solution with their latest patent, but they'll have to start over again at phase I for Follica 2.0. In the meantime at least they'll be generating revenue soon.

Yes. I've been keeping an eye on Cots & Follica's work for a long time. IMO their current Minoxidil protocol seems like a revenue grab to placate impatient investors and keep their lights on. The wounding concept is capable of doing more.

 

[Roeysdomi]

Are ppl here nuts or somthing?

follica gains based mostly on the minoxidil effect! Which already known to provide temporary results . Not matter what gains you get from this protocol your are still dosent solve sh*t using this. Even if they have 1 year of gains this is not diffrent then what we have already that again consider temp solution.

follica is sh*t!

 

[pegasus2]

Follica is good

 

[Roeysdomi]

Follica is good

Suprisng to see denial from user like you.

 

[pegasus2]

Suprisng to see denial from user like you.

It worked better on me than minoxidil alone, and the results lasted longer too. My experience is in line with the studies on it

 

[trialAcc]

Are ppl here nuts or somthing?

follica gains based mostly on the minoxidil effect! Which already known to provide temporary results . Not matter what gains you get from this protocol your are still dosent solve sh*t using this. Even if they have 1 year of gains this is not diffrent then what we have already that again consider temp solution.

follica is sh*t!

No, people in here are just more intelligent then yourself lol. The gains are greater and more wide spread then minoxidil alone, and lasted longer then standard min. This proves that the needling protocol is having an effect.