Can Non-dht Androgens Cause Baldness?

Afro_Vacancy

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Do we know that androgens other than DHT don't contribute to baldness?

If the androgen receptor is 5x more responsive to DHT than to T, but T is 10x more abundance than DHT, shouldn't 67% of your hair loss be from T and not DHT?
 

abcdefg

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I always wondered this too. Men that are castrated actually have huge drops in T along with DHT. People in the past have called me stupid for asking if T could contribute too
Lets say this if you take dutasteride or finasteride you still grow facial hair and body hair so its clearly not controlled just by DHT alone. What other hormone is in huge abundance in men only?
The real issue though is even if T is a big player in male pattern baldness so what then. Nothing can be done about it in any practical way anyway. You cant remove or stop T in a normal man without worse sides then finasteride
My answer - Yes. Its the big unaddressed factor in men sensitive to androgens.
 
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SpaceInvader

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Not to mention PGE-2 and PGD-2, which have been discovered to have a more direct influence than DHT.
 

abcdefg

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Not to mention PGE-2 and PGD-2, which have been discovered to have a more direct influence than DHT.

Do we know PGD 2 has more influence on male pattern baldness then DHT? Other then an article from years ago when he found it I havent seen much evidence on how important it really is. Seti is based around it so I guess we can assume it does something, but how much?
 

SpaceInvader

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Do we know PGD 2 has more influence on male pattern baldness then DHT? Other then an article from years ago when he found it I havent seen much evidence on how important it really is. Seti is based around it so I guess we can assume it does something, but how much?

Not saying it has more influence, but according to that, PGD-2 is between DHT and the follicle. In that sense, if the miniaturization is directly because of PGD-2, then it can be a more direct cause. We really need more people looking further into this, because we basically just have it on paper, then Swisstemples' Prostaglanding Protocol.
 

DHTpolice

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Well, I have started seeing essential thickening all over only after my testosterone went down (on spironolactone and cypro) and when sexual sides have gotten worse. I am not a trans, I am following antydhtor's regimen, but mine is definetely not so nuclear (just 6.25 mg cypro and 100 mg spironolactone everyday). Finasteride alone just gave me some small and weak hairs on the vertex in place where diffuse thinning was the worst. But I was on it only 2-3 months.
 

SpaceInvader

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Well, I have started seeing essential thickening all over only after my testosterone went down (on spironolactone and cypro) and when sexual sides have gotten worse. I am not a trans, I am following antydhtor's regimen, but mine is definetely not so nuclear (just 6.25 mg cypro and 100 mg spironolactone everyday). Finasteride alone just gave me some small and weak hairs on the vertex in place where diffuse thinning was the worst. But I was on it only 2-3 months.

So did you drop finasteride? It's still listed in your regimen. If still using it, would you say it provided a synergistic effect along with the spironolactone and Cypro?
 

whatevr

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Pseudohermaphrodites, individuals having 5-AR-2 deficiency, thus, who have testosterone but lack most DHT, do not experience baldness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_deficiency#Signs

In adulthood, individuals do not experience male-pattern baldness.[1] As DHT is a far more potent androgen than testosterone alone, virilization in those lacking DHT may be absent or reduced compared to males with functional 5-AR. It is hypothesized that rising testosterone levels at the start of puberty are able to generate sufficient levels of DHT either by the action of 5α-reductase type I (active in the adult liver, non-genital skin and some brain areas) or through the expression of low levels of 5α-reductase type II in the testes.

Your premise also assumes that testosterone and DHT would have the same action just because they bind to the same receptor. They do not.

Testosterone may be more abundant and bind in far greater amounts yet not exert the same destructive effects because it is a different molecule that activates the receptor in different ways. Otherwise having something like RU58841 binding to the receptor would cause hair loss just as good as DHT, and the whole concept of receptor agonists/antagonists would not work.
 

Prada1

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I would think so, in body building many non DHT or DHT derivatives are infamous for hairloss. e.g..tren, masterone, winstrol,etc
So I guess there seems to be some correlation between how androgenic a compound is and its effects on hair.
 

kawnshawn

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I remember a while back stumbling across a post from the late great Bryan who came to the conclusion that testosterone can play a role in hair loss depending on how sensitive your hair is.
 

abcdefg

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I remember a while back stumbling across a post from the late great Bryan who came to the conclusion that testosterone can play a role in hair loss depending on how sensitive your hair is.

Yes without understanding how sensitivity works can we say all men are immune to testosterone? Or could some men be sensitive to T along with DHT? Maybe if the temples/frontal area dont respond as well to propecia its because T is enough for more sensitive areas. We just lack answers which makes you wonder.
I do agree the Pseudohermaphrodites help make the case its mostly DHT, but there are open questions on this. Do Pseudohermaphrodites have the same androgen receptor layout/density as men with male pattern baldness or in normal men if you remove 5-ar2 can T take over and resume loss? Its tough to say
 

copcop1970

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I was thinking, what if we replace the androgenic receptors with a dht derivative in low dosage. A dht derivative that is know to have little hair loss. Maybe 50 mg of primobolan...replace the stronger dht with a milder one
or low dose nandrolone.....greater affinity in binding to the receptors than testesterone....a few years back i was shedding like crazy and i did a single shot of 100 mg deca...shedding was completely over...over an extend time these will shut you down but i've taken fina and dutasteride and they did also after only a few weeks....putting milder hormones on the receptors could work
 

DHTpolice

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So did you drop finasteride? It's still listed in your regimen. If still using it, would you say it provided a synergistic effect along with the spironolactone and Cypro?

No, I am on finasteride still, but I doubt it plays significant role in regrowth. Will drop it soon and probably change my current regimen to 100 mg spironolactone ed, 0.5 dutasteride eod and 12.5 mg bicalutamide every 3 day.
 

Zel_[]

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I would think so, in body building many non DHT or DHT derivatives are infamous for hairloss. e.g..tren, masterone, winstrol,etc
So I guess there seems to be some correlation between how androgenic a compound is and its effects on hair.
true and this confuses me, i thought only dht can trigger the genes responsible for hair loss
 

JaneyElizabeth

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DHT synthesizes itself in scalp and beard hair and it appears to be able to do so with very little reductase circulating. This is why even some castrates struggle to grow hair even with estrogen. My issues with DHT faded with beard removal. Hair and beards are not in perfect sync but they definitely are negatively correlated with each other. None of this is easy to decipher but prostaglandins are not the answer for all of the thousands and thousands of words written about them.
 

bluecyclone

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I was thinking, what if we replace the androgenic receptors with a dht derivative in low dosage. A dht derivative that is know to have little hair loss. Maybe 50 mg of primobolan...replace the stronger dht with a milder one
or low dose nandrolone.....greater affinity in binding to the receptors than testesterone....a few years back i was shedding like crazy and i did a single shot of 100 mg deca...shedding was completely over...over an extend time these will shut you down but i've taken fina and dutasteride and they did also after only a few weeks....putting milder hormones on the receptors could work
This is an interesting hypothesis
 
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