Building Up Tolerance To Medications.

AmericanHairlines90

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I was curious about anybody else’s experience and thoughts to building up a tolerance to medications?! I know that i had built a tolerance to Finasteride and Dutasteride over a very short period of time. I done a lot of research on this and it turns out that most people do build a tolerance to most drugs (anti androgens, antidepressants, even recreational drugs and even alcohol etc.) that’s why people need more/higher doses of such drug to get the same effects they once had. I think this is a huge component to hairloss treatment. Fighting this thing is not so plain and simple if our bodies are always going to find a way to counterattack treatment. Does anybody have any experience with building up tolerance to their hairloss treatment? And what have they done (if anything)? Any thoughts and opinions?
 

1knox1

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https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/re...-to-investigate-long-term-effects-and-safety/

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=113284

Quote from a long time poster (Decadetwo):

'The major takeaway from the finasteride study that does not get mentioned enough is: as you age finasteride works better, not worse. The simple reason for this, closely paraphrasing the authors, is that it is well known what happens to androgen levels as men age (they drop). The finasteride keeps working the same, but your reduced androgen levels create a better environment for your hair. The authors also make it clear (again closely paraphrasing): unlike what is seen in other drugs, you do not build a tolerance to finasteride, and it does not lose effectiveness with time.'
 

AmericanHairlines90

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https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/re...-to-investigate-long-term-effects-and-safety/

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=113284

Quote from a long time poster (Decadetwo):

'The major takeaway from the finasteride study that does not get mentioned enough is: as you age finasteride works better, not worse. The simple reason for this, closely paraphrasing the authors, is that it is well known what happens to androgen levels as men age (they drop). The finasteride keeps working the same, but your reduced androgen levels create a better environment for your hair. The authors also make it clear (again closely paraphrasing): unlike what is seen in other drugs, you do not build a tolerance to finasteride, and it does not lose effectiveness with time.'
You’re right that men start to decrease testosterone production as they age. But on the other hand many men start losing their hair in their 40’s as well even with this being the case. Our bodies change over time and we do build tolerance to medication. Propecia stopped working for me and then I had to increase the dose for it to start working and again and then it stopped working yet again shortly thereafter increasing the dose. I’m speaking from my own experience. Ask any doctor and most of them will tell you building tolerance is possible to any medication.
Another example: women use Spironolactone for bad acne and it works great but usually from what I’ve read 2 years down the road it tends to stop working for them.
I think hormones tend to compensate over time for the medication. Especially when working with hormonal issues such as hairloss, acne, thyroid issues etc...
 

Bigbone

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https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/re...-to-investigate-long-term-effects-and-safety/

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=113284

Quote from a long time poster (Decadetwo):

'The major takeaway from the finasteride study that does not get mentioned enough is: as you age finasteride works better, not worse. The simple reason for this, closely paraphrasing the authors, is that it is well known what happens to androgen levels as men age (they drop). The finasteride keeps working the same, but your reduced androgen levels create a better environment for your hair. The authors also make it clear (again closely paraphrasing): unlike what is seen in other drugs, you do not build a tolerance to finasteride, and it does not lose effectiveness with time.'

What's the explanation for those that actually start losing hair 5 years into treatment? You're right about androgen-levels going down with age, but I believe that the hair follicles become more sensitive with age as well.
 

1knox1

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What's the explanation for those that actually start losing hair 5 years into treatment? You're right about androgen-levels going down with age, but I believe that the hair follicles become more sensitive with age as well.

I agree with your sentiment.
 

Finjunkie

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There's plenty of drugs that maintain effectiveness for life, I would bet that the ones you build a tolerance to are actually the minority. This isn't scientific, but it seems like most of those are clearly addictive. Finasteride has has studies lasting up to ten years and maintains effectiveness for most guys. I would be really surprised if it didn't last forever
 

AmericanHairlines90

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There's plenty of drugs that maintain effectiveness for life, I would bet that the ones you build a tolerance to are actually the minority. This isn't scientific, but it seems like most of those are clearly addictive. Finasteride has has studies lasting up to ten years and maintains effectiveness for most guys. I would be really surprised if it didn't last forever
There are some guys (myself included) that become resistant/tolerant to Finasteride. The medication completely stopped working for me after 6/7 months. I increased the dose to 2 pills a day and then my hair grew back for a short period of time but then I lost all of it again after 3/4 months of that. I went on Dutasteride after, which had no effect on my hair alone whatsoever. I’m assuming since I had to increase the dose in order for it to work again that indicates I’ve become resistant to it. I wish Finasteride worked forever for me. But it didn’t and I had to deal with that fact a few years ago.
I get what you’re saying though. Addiction And drugs that effect the brain are different. But our body always wants to go back to how it is supposed to be and usually finds a way to do so. Not everybody builds up tolerance to Finasteride but a lot of people can and will. Just from what I know through my own experience.
 

can'tBeatNature

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There are some guys (myself included) that become resistant/tolerant to Finasteride. The medication completely stopped working for me after 6/7 months. I increased the dose to 2 pills a day and then my hair grew back for a short period of time but then I lost all of it again after 3/4 months of that. I went on Dutasteride after, which had no effect on my hair alone whatsoever. I’m assuming since I had to increase the dose in order for it to work again that indicates I’ve become resistant to it. I wish Finasteride worked forever for me. But it didn’t and I had to deal with that fact a few years ago.
I get what you’re saying though. Addiction And drugs that effect the brain are different. But our body always wants to go back to how it is supposed to be and usually finds a way to do so. Not everybody builds up tolerance to Finasteride but a lot of people can and will. Just from what I know through my own experience.

I think a lot of people think that just because the medication isn't having the required effect, they believe it's not performing its function. The thing is, Finasteride is probably still lowering DHT, but the intended effect of stopping hairloss either weakens a bit or completely. You guys fail to realize that there are a lot more variables than just DHT levels that are killing your hair. For instance, when you take DHT blockers, you run the risk of up-regulation of the androgen receptors in your hair follicles, causing more androgen receptors to attach to your follicles-- basically causing them to be a hell of a lot more sensitive to the remaining DHT. Then there is the issue of the immune response + inflammation when it comes to attacking(miniaturization) the hair follicles with DHT attached to it. Just because the hairloss hasn't stabilized and may have progressed, doesn't mean you became "immune" to the drug, as the drug is still performing it's intended function-- your genetics just took plan b to kill off your goddamn hair follicles.
 

can'tBeatNature

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You can't just take oral meds for the most part. Unless you're a top responder. You need to tackle hairloss from multiple angles. That means EVERYTHING...
 

AmericanHairlines90

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I think a lot of people think that just because the medication isn't having the required effect, they believe it's not performing its function. The thing is, Finasteride is probably still lowering DHT, but the intended effect of stopping hairloss either weakens a bit or completely. You guys fail to realize that there are a lot more variables than just DHT levels that are killing your hair. For instance, when you take DHT blockers, you run the risk of up-regulation of the androgen receptors in your hair follicles, causing more androgen receptors to attach to your follicles-- basically causing them to be a hell of a lot more sensitive to the remaining DHT. Then there is the issue of the immune response + inflammation when it comes to attacking(miniaturization) the hair follicles with DHT attached to it. Just because the hairloss hasn't stabilized and may have progressed, doesn't mean you became "immune" to the drug, as the drug is still performing it's intended function-- your genetics just took plan b to kill off your goddamn hair follicles.

I’m well aware there are many factors to hair loss. It’s basically a journey of self discovery. What works, what doesn’t and what we choose to do and our genetics. Nobody is saying immune, But to keep things straightforward, if for let’s say one of those reasons Finasteride, or whatever stops having an effect because the body is adapting to the medication I’d probably just say that the body became tolerant to the medication. Not immune! Even though it might be doing its job it’s pretty much irrelevant because it’s not working like it did before on that particular person.
 

bridgeburn

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When you take finasteride it blocks about 70% of Dht but you still have the other 30% and you still have T as well, and this is probably why hairloss eventually catches up again.
 

ThickAndTired

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As others have said
I would guess that the actual thing that takes place is an upregulation of the hair follicle's sensitivity to DHT.
The hormone is there since infancy. it just starts killing hair when the follicles decide to develop receptors for it.
from some perspective it might seem like fighting hair loss is trying to prevent the body from accomplishing what it's trying to.
 

abcdefg

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You’re right that men start to decrease testosterone production as they age. But on the other hand many men start losing their hair in their 40’s as well even with this being the case. Our bodies change over time and we do build tolerance to medication. Propecia stopped working for me and then I had to increase the dose for it to start working and again and then it stopped working yet again shortly thereafter increasing the dose. I’m speaking from my own experience. Ask any doctor and most of them will tell you building tolerance is possible to any medication.
Another example: women use Spironolactone for bad acne and it works great but usually from what I’ve read 2 years down the road it tends to stop working for them.
I think hormones tend to compensate over time for the medication. Especially when working with hormonal issues such as hairloss, acne, thyroid issues etc...

Maybe. I feel like its not tolerance to the drug changing its that as you get older the sensitivity keeps increasing. Everything else stays the same just as you get older your hair gets increasingly sensitive to the androgens present.
 

AmericanHairlines90

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Maybe. I feel like its not tolerance to the drug changing its that as you get older the sensitivity keeps increasing. Everything else stays the same just as you get older your hair gets increasingly sensitive to the androgens present.

I think what you're saying here is correct. Or for some reason DHT and other androgens are being used differently in the body. Hopefully there's research being done on this. This I believe would be the end to hairloss for most cases. Maybe one day I'll go back to school when I have the time for this. It's interesting stuff.
 

Finjunkie

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There are some guys (myself included) that become resistant/tolerant to Finasteride. The medication completely stopped working for me after 6/7 months. I increased the dose to 2 pills a day and then my hair grew back for a short period of time but then I lost all of it again after 3/4 months of that. I went on Dutasteride after, which had no effect on my hair alone whatsoever. I’m assuming since I had to increase the dose in order for it to work again that indicates I’ve become resistant to it. I wish Finasteride worked forever for me. But it didn’t and I had to deal with that fact a few years ago.
I get what you’re saying though. Addiction And drugs that effect the brain are different. But our body always wants to go back to how it is supposed to be and usually finds a way to do so. Not everybody builds up tolerance to Finasteride but a lot of people can and will. Just from what I know through my own experience.

Speaking from my own experience, 6 months isn't even enough to know if finasteride is working. It took me years until I was sure. Maybe if you're losing hair extremely fast you could see a difference at 6 months but I personally don't think it's possible outside of very scientific conditions that nobody outside the studies can match.
 

g.i joey

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I think when you're a good responder to finasteride, your hair literally just gets better and better over the years... probably up until year 10 or that ballpark... my brothers hair has been getting better As the years go by it's ridiculous... the recession hasn't recovered at all and may have progresssed a tad bit in 7-8 years but nothing noticeable. But it's the quality of his existing hair that's ridiculous... I can't even achieve that even after 15 months on finasteride... and he got on finasteride when his hair was worse than mine

i honestly feel like he may have pfs'ed himself into having great hair for life, a la @Admin
 

AmericanHairlines90

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Speaking from my own experience, 6 months isn't even enough to know if finasteride is working. It took me years until I was sure. Maybe if you're losing hair extremely fast you could see a difference at 6 months but I personally don't think it's possible outside of very scientific conditions that nobody outside the studies can match.

For whatever reason in my own experience it literally took a week to notice a difference when I first started finasteride. It thickened right up with no shed whatsoever. But I was losing my hair extremely fast though. So maybe this is why finasteride worked so well in the beginning for me. But as quick as it came is as quick as it went. I don’t know how to describe it but it was pretty traumatic and only being 22 at the time made it more difficult to deal with. Finasteride kept my hair growing and thick for about 6 months and then after, back to thinning and an intense scalp itch that kept me up all night.
 

can'tBeatNature

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For whatever reason in my own experience it literally took a week to notice a difference when I first started finasteride. It thickened right up with no shed whatsoever. But I was losing my hair extremely fast though. So maybe this is why finasteride worked so well in the beginning for me. But as quick as it came is as quick as it went. I don’t know how to describe it but it was pretty traumatic and only being 22 at the time made it more difficult to deal with. Finasteride kept my hair growing and thick for about 6 months and then after, back to thinning and an intense scalp itch that kept me up all night.

That's rough. When I was 22 I had a teenage hairline, a perfect norwood 1, and super thick, dense hair. Fast forward almost 2 years later when I'm almost 24, without any signs whatsoever I started thinning. My scalp itched like crazy and it was accompanied with tons of dandruff and shed hairs. I didn't really think much of it, balding didn't cross my mind since I believed it would happen way later in life. Halfway into being 24 years old my hair density tanked by about 35%. I have diffuse thinning, so I kept my juvenile hairline. My hair was still dense, and the existing hairs were really thick, but I could tell--others couldn't. I immediately hopped on rogaine. Experienced a small shed, and reversed a little of the miniaturization, but it thickened the hell out of my existing hair, which compensated for the loss of density. This was good for about 6 months, then another wave of hairloss kicked in. I have aggressive boughts of loss and stability. I have about 50% of my hair, but luckily I had really, really, like really f*****g had dense and thick hair, so it didn't look like I was experiencing hairloss to anyone else.

This is when I became absolutely obsessed with hairloss and scoured the internet for solutions. Upped my regimen to finasteride and that helped a ton, but just like you, experienced tolerance after about 6 months. The dreaded scalp itch came back. I'm a diffuse thinner, so I still had a near perfect norwood 1, but I think with diffuse thinners the hairloss is much more aggressive and less responsive to drugs. Upped my regimen by adding in dutasteride, which was like night and day. Experienced a big shed, but it regrew back, but the biggest things were the dreaded scalp itch was95% gone and intense thickening of the hair. Also, the waves of hairloss weren't as bad on dutasteride, but I still experienced noticeable loss. Although I wasn't losing as much hairs, the areas in the scalp where I was losing them were very inflammed and hurt to touch. And I definitely think that has to do with receptor up-regulation which was completely nuking the super sensitive hair follicles.

Now at 26, I still have a norwood 1 hairline, minor recession on the temples and hairline, but they are growing back from rogaine and derma rolling. I'm upping my regimen again by adding RU58841, in order to tackle the androgen receptor problem. Hopefully, I'll be able to salvage my hair by reducing existing dht and then blocking the androgens with RU. If that doesn't work, I'll probably end up increasing my 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day to 2.5 to nearly eradict scalp dht-- but I am worried about the sides.

f*** hairloss.
 

davesmith420

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@davesmith420 any more thoughts on adding dutas or you happy with finasteride for now?

I'm debating; however I think I'm probably better off waiting until sh*t really hits the fan. I'm still above/at baseline and I'm 2 years on finasteride.
 
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