Bryan's help!!a new cause of male pattern baldness?>> the sebaceus gland

[hoping]

my friend uses coal tar soap...god does it stink...he got it from ireland....

 

[Thinning]

Sounds like some of you guys have Sebum problems. Try Sebonex shampoo and ointment. It may not help your hair much, but it should help your scalp health.

 

[jimmystanley]

seems that those of us with oily scalps and male pattern baldness have something that causes both...androgens! the size of the sebaceous gland is enlarged and that causes an extra amount of secretion...this can be deadly to the hair follicle. i think it's important to keep our scalps clean and to find something to either shrink the sebaceous gland or to decrease the amount of sebum secretion...some how. bryan says that coal tar shrinks the gland...in theory....? i don't think that if u eliminate the sebaceous problem that you eliminate the cause of male pattern baldness though...it will just make it less severe!...like how mine is now! :hairy: shaved heads are great for this.

 

[S Foote.]

I do have the same problem....

I think there may be a strong linkage with increased scalp oiliness and male pattern baldness progression.

However, I have yet to find strong scientific studies backing whether it's causal (increased sebaceous glands activities causing male pattern baldness) or it's just correlated (something cause male pattern baldness and at the same time increased scalp oiliness).

Anyone with info to share??

I would also be interested in any `hard' evidence on this subject.

Some people are saying that the sebaceous glands enlarge in male pattern baldness, but i can't find anything definate on the subject. I did read somewhere a while back that suggested the sebaceous glands in male pattern baldness stay the same size as they were prior to male pattern baldness. These were originally `large' glands `oilling' large terminal hairs.

Once the hair is lost to male pattern baldness, these large glands still produce a lot of sebum, but this is no longer being `wicked' away by a large hair! So if this is remaining in the gland itself, it becomes an ideal breeding medium for skin `bugs'. This combined with the sensitive immunology in the balding tissue, could be why seb derm is often associated with male pattern baldness.

I certainly think that any local inflammation in the sebaceous glands, is a further negative factor that `adds' to the male pattern baldness problem, but i don't think it is a `causitive' factor in male pattern baldness.

S Foote.

 

[hairschmair]

seems that those of us with oily scalps and male pattern baldness have something that causes both...androgens!

The thing that makes me a bit skeptical is that a lot of people have oily scalps (OS from now on). Say 1/3 of the world's population would define themselves as having OS. That means, if OS and male pattern baldness are unrelated, 1/3 of the people reading this forum would have OS.

Now if 1/3 of the people have OS, and someone says "I have a very oily scalp and I am losing my hair", a LOT of people will naturally agree and respond to this thread. That's just how the numbers would work.

I hope I am making sense. I'm not trying to distract with your investigation here, just thinking out loud. I, for one, have always had a very dry scalp.

 

[Bryan]

Once the hair is lost to male pattern baldness, these large glands still produce a lot of sebum, but this is no longer being `wicked' away by a large hair!

I've already explained to you before: Kligman et al proved that hairs don't "wick" away sebum.

Bryan

 

[Petchsky]

Nizoral, T-Gel and occasionally copper peptides have kept my scalp any previous scalp problems at bay for 2 years now. Still get a little white build up, but it's nothing compared to what it use to be.

 

[S Foote.]

Once the hair is lost to male pattern baldness, these large glands still produce a lot of sebum, but this is no longer being `wicked' away by a large hair!

I've already explained to you before: Kligman et al proved that hairs don't "wick" away sebum.

Bryan

No Bryan, `YOU' said the last time this came up that hair doesn't `SOAK UP' sebum!!

Are you now trying to say that sebum does `NOT' coat the hair shaft? Are you saying that sebum plays no part in the natural water proofing of hair? Just what is it do you think that causes `greasy' hair Bryan?

Next you will be trying to tell us that the fact that sebaceous glands are an integral part of hair follicles, is just a coincidence!!

I want you to be `VERY' clear in your response here Bryan! Otherwise you will be trying to claim in future posts when you change your opinion, that we didn't understand the `sublities' of the wording of your posts :roll:

S Foote.

 

[jikslee]

well somehting thats "wicked" away is being soaked up..like a candle wick soaks up wax to burn.

"wicked" and soaked are the same thing..what a great sentance!

 

[Bryan]

No Bryan, `YOU' said the last time this came up that hair doesn't `SOAK UP' sebum!!

Oh, is being "soaked up" a lot different from being "wicked up", Stephen? :wink:

Are you now trying to say that sebum does `NOT' coat the hair shaft? Are you saying that sebum plays no part in the natural water proofing of hair? Just what is it do you think that causes `greasy' hair Bryan?

Here's a thorough and definitive investigation of that phenomenon by Kligman...it comes about by physical contact with the hair. This is from the book "Hair Research" (Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg 1981):

"Refatting of Hair"

"Apart from the amount of sebum on the hair is the fascinating question of how it gets there. Hardly anyone has thought to look into the matter for the answer seems too obvious from the anatomy of the pilosebaceous unit. What could be more natural than to suppose that the sebum, excreted into the follicular canal, simply spreads up the hair shaft and uniformly coats it. Credit to Eberhardt for the imagination to question the obvious and for the elegantly simple methods employed in its refutation (Eberhardt 1976). When a droplet of sebum is placed on hair none of the lipid moves away; further, sebum will not creep along the surface when a terminal hair is placed in a capillary filled with sebum. We were incredulous and thought that the hair might first have to be moistened. However, we too found that sebum would not spontaneously spread out when droplets were placed on previously immersed hairs held in an atmosphere saturated with water. Further, we strung hairs in close parallel array on a wire frame, thinking that sebum placed at one end would migrate between the hairs by capillarity. Wetted or dry, the sebum showed not the slightest inclination to spread over the hairs as visualized by exposure to osmium tetroxide vapors. It seems an inescapable conclusion that the hairs become greased by mechanical transfer, from the scalp surface to the hairs, and from hair to hair. The hair acquires sebum by direct contact. The dispersal of sebum from the surface would be facilitated by combing and brushing, by wearing a hat, by rubbing the fingers through the hair, etc. Resilient, easily bendable thin hair would have a greater chance of contacting sebum than straight, stiff, widely-spaced hairs. Refatting of the hair is thus complex and will vary greatly from individual to individual."

Bryan

 

[hairschmair]

following on from that interesting paragraph quoted by Bryan... what is the evolutionary purpose of sebum covering all your hair shafts?

 

[crisis]

i have noticed this link with sebaceous output and hair loss before aswell. I get very oily areas of my scalp but also suffer from dandruff and itchiness.

few random observations i have made:

my hair falls out (when i run my hands through my hair) alot more readily when i haven't washed my hair for a couple of days i.e. when oil has built up, as opposed to immediately after it has been washed when my scalp is clean and my hair appears to be relatively strong.

the areas of my scalp which shed most readily are also the most oily areas of my scalp (temporal regions, around my ears)

i used to suffer very mild acne on my face which was accompanied by oily skin. the oily skin has now stopped and so have the spots. almost immediately after i got a reduction in facial oil, i started to lose hair and saw an increase in scalp oil production.

its very difficult to say wether these reasons are the cause of hair loss or a byproduct of some other cause.

I have started using T-Gel recently to try and control scalp itchiness and dandruff. I dont use any hair loss products at all (finasteride, nizoral, minoxidil) so i know they are not a factor.

 

[crisis]

by the way, i wear a hat most days will this increase scalp oil production?

 

[Guest]

Maybe it will help Bryan and S.foote to stop bickering with each other.

 

[plat]

The only drug with sebostatic properties and regimen of choice in severe seborrhea is isotretinoin (Roaccutan) in as low daily doses as 0.1 mg/kg.

 

[arjun17]

Right on , crisis...........

I too have a pretty oily scalp which developed over the last 2-3 yrs(I'm 17.5), and I also shed like a ****ard. I lose atleast 50 hairs in the shower every time I shampoo, but uniformly from all over the scalp. There are also 5-10 hairs on the pillow almost every morning. But the weird thing is .... I am not going bald as of now, well atleast I don't seem to be going bald even to myself, let alone other casual observers. I am still a NW1 - no receding or thinning whatsoever at the temples. Top and crown also seemingly perfect - no loss visible even when wet under bright bathroom lights. There is very limited hair loss on my dad's side of the family (only a little diffuse thinning into old age) and some significant hairloss on my mom's side, but that is the typical Norwood male pattern baldness, not diffuse thinning. My maternal granddad and uncle are both bald (NW6) but they receded in the typical pattern which moved noticeably past mature hairline (NW2) from around 35, they were both NW3 by 40. I don't seem to be going that way, but I'll have to wait for around 12 years to be dead sure
Anyways, my point is that oily scalp could well be a significant factor in (not causing , but aggravating)male pattern baldness, especially in diffuse thinning. Sebum contains DHT, which could add to the detrimental effect of the other scalp DHT. Just keeping the scalp free of oil by regular washing may well be enough to minimise most cases of mild male pattern baldness, in my opinion.
Cheers,
Arjun

 

[nervx]

There is no doubt in my mind that the white/yellow, flakey, red spot crap causes hair to fall out. A few years ago my scalp started getting bad. At first it was only in the front and temple areas, the left temple always being the worst but eventually it started to spread over more of my head.

Today my hairline has taken a beating and it's thinned on top a good deal. The areas that had the worst of the skin problem are now the thinnest. My left temple is about an inch further back than the right.
When i asked my dermatologist about it causing hair loss she said not likely but she didn't sound 100% sure.

Oh and i forgot earlier but i read on another forum:

-tgel/sal helps reduce the problem
-shaving your head and spending outside can clear it almost completely
-super short hair and spending time outside/in a tanning bed helps helps a lot as well

There's a UV treatment for these types of conditions, it's kind of a last resort but it explains why shaving your head and tanning fixes the problem.

 

[Armando Jose]

This is my hypotesis
http://www.againstalopeciaandbaldness.com

In my opinnion sebum flow could be a trigger of male pattern baldness

Armando

 

[S Foote.]

No Bryan, `YOU' said the last time this came up that hair doesn't `SOAK UP' sebum!!

Oh, is being "soaked up" a lot different from being "wicked up", Stephen? :wink:

[quote="S Foote.":35b73]Are you now trying to say that sebum does `NOT' coat the hair shaft? Are you saying that sebum plays no part in the natural water proofing of hair? Just what is it do you think that causes `greasy' hair Bryan?

Here's a thorough and definitive investigation of that phenomenon by Kligman...it comes about by physical contact with the hair. This is from the book "Hair Research" (Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg 1981):[/quote:35b73]

Firstly Bryan, it doesn't really matter `how' the sebum coats the hair, we just know that it does! In coating the hair, the sebum `supply' is being used. In male pattern baldness there is no significant amount of hair to `use' this sebum, so effectively the `supply' vastly exceeds the `demand' in male pattern baldness, thats the point.

The other thing that strikes me about the study you quote, is again the lack of `real' context in these `in-vitro' type studies.

In-vivo, the sebaceous gland is ideally placed to `inject' sebum into the hair shaft at a low pressure constant rate. Also absent from the experiments you quote was any reference to the temperature of the tested sebum? At the `warm' normal body temperature, the flow characteristics of sebum would be better.

I don't think sebum coats hair by mechanical transfer, i think nature's a lot smarter than that 8)

S Foote.

 

[Bryan]

Firstly Bryan, it doesn't really matter `how' the sebum coats the hair, we just know that it does! In coating the hair, the sebum `supply' is being used. In male pattern baldness there is no significant amount of hair to `use' this sebum, so effectively the `supply' vastly exceeds the `demand' in male pattern baldness, thats the point.

Not much of a point, really. I think the amount of sebum that gets transferred to hair is probably relatively small compared to the total amount that's actually produced in the scalp, unless a person spends most of his day combing his hair, scratching his head, playing with his hair, etc.!

The other thing that strikes me about the study you quote, is again the lack of `real' context in these `in-vitro' type studies.

In-vivo, the sebaceous gland is ideally placed to `inject' sebum into the hair shaft at a low pressure constant rate. Also absent from the experiments you quote was any reference to the temperature of the tested sebum? At the `warm' normal body temperature, the flow characteristics of sebum would be better.

I guarantee you that Eberhart and Kligman took into account the viscosity of sebum at body temperature.

I don't think sebum coats hair by mechanical transfer, i think nature's a lot smarter than that 8)

You don't even believe the findings of these serious scientists?? Somehow, I'm not terribly surprised at that! :wink:

Bryan