Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru tim

[triton2]

I have always wondered what’s the reason behind the fact that, after a certain amount of time, you begin to lose the hair gained through 5AR blocker usage while you keep using it as usual.
I would understand that your hairloss would either just stop or slow down, but it’s the regrowth what puzzless me. I’ve thought something like this might be a possible explanation for the regrowth seen:

1) Your body "restores" hair at a 1x speed for instance.
2) Your endogenous DHT "screws" hair at a 3x speed for instance.

Then: given the fact that "screwing" speed is 3 fold higher than "restoring" speed you'll always lose hair thru time.
Now, let’s suppose you begin taking a 5AR blocker and reduce "screwing" speed to , let's say, 0,5x... then, given the fact that it's lower than "restoring" speed (1x), you begin to grow some hair back. Why would, after a certain number of months, you begin to lose hair? Is it that 'screwing' speed begins to accelerate again as a result of AR upregulation? Is it that your 5arblocker is no longer SO effective at blocking 5AR? Is it that "restoring" speed, for some reason, goes down?

I have one more question yet:

On the other hand, I cannot understand the statement I’ve read several times from many people, which was something like this: “If you use finasteride for X years and avoid a certain quantity of hair from falling off, when you quit using it you’ll reach a point where your hair would be in the same state it would be hadn’t you ever used anythingâ€. I can understand that you lose the hair you REGREW using finasteride; what I cannot understand is that you begin to lose at high speed what you RETAINED (as opposed to regrew) until it reaches a point where, after a certain amount of time, your hair is just the same, hadn’t you ever used it or had you used it for 10 years and then quitted. It makes no sense to me that having dermal papilla ARs strongly activated for 20 years has the same result as having them mildly (by using finasteride) activated for 10 years and then strongly activated for 10 more years; it SHOULDN’T be the same! Any explanation for this?

Thank you.

 

[chewbaca]

hmm good Q..

 

[Britannia]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

I cannot understand is that you begin to lose at high speed what you RETAINED (as opposed to regrew) until it reaches a point where, after a certain amount of time, your hair is just the same.

This is incorrect. When you stop finasteride, you will shed the hairs that you regrew while on the drug. However the hairs that you retained by using finasteride will simply be lost at the same rate as you would had you never been on the drug. There is a wonderful graph around somewhere (SE-Freak?) which shows this.
What you are saying is true for Minoxidil though.

 

[Bryan]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

I have always wondered what’s the reason behind the fact that, after a certain amount of time, you begin to lose the hair gained through 5AR blocker usage while you keep using it as usual.

Good question, and there's been a lot of discussion of that issue over the years. One pet theory of my own is that at least _some_ of the slow decline in haircounts that they got in the original huge Propecia trial after the first year was due to slow thinning due to the aging process itself, rather than true male pattern baldness.

On the other hand, I cannot understand the statement I’ve read several times from many people, which was something like this: “If you use finasteride for X years and avoid a certain quantity of hair from falling off, when you quit using it you’ll reach a point where your hair would be in the same state it would be hadn’t you ever used anythingâ€. I can understand that you lose the hair you REGREW using finasteride; what I cannot understand is that you begin to lose at high speed what you RETAINED (as opposed to regrew) until it reaches a point where, after a certain amount of time, your hair is just the same, hadn’t you ever used it or had you used it for 10 years and then quitted. It makes no sense to me that having dermal papilla ARs strongly activated for 20 years has the same result as having them mildly (by using finasteride) activated for 10 years and then strongly activated for 10 more years; it SHOULDN’T be the same! Any explanation for this?

I generally agree with what Britannia said: the loss you get after stopping finasteride is apparently considerably slower than what you get when you stop using minoxidil, at least in the short-term. However, I do think it's rather uncertain just exactly how long it takes for your hairloss to "catch up" after stopping finasteride in the long-term, because we don't have any data for that.

Bryan

 

[chewbaca]

Judging from what Byran and Britannia said( if its backed by studies), it may show that hair is prone to "destruction" by harmful hormones" and that it is resielient , it can bounce back

So the right step towards male pattern baldness esearch is to find drugs or cures which can permanently alter this process to stop hair going back to being "male pattern baldness prone" due to stoppage of treatment...

A few waysd to do this is to permanently disable AR receptors

 

[triton2]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

I generally agree with what Britannia said: the loss you get after stopping finasteride is apparently considerably slower than what you get when you stop using minoxidil, at least in the short-term. However, I do think it's rather uncertain just exactly how long it takes for your hairloss to "catch up" after stopping finasteride in the long-term, because we don't have any data for that.

That's precisely what I can't understand... it's not a matter of speed, because even if it doesn't "catch up" until several years later it still doesn't make sense to me.
Let's suppose...

Situation A: A man starts using finasteride when he is 20 years old and takes it for 10 years (until he is 30 years old) and, after that, he spends 10 years of his life without taking it. Now he is forty years old.

Situation B: We go back in time and the same man, at age 20, decides not to take any medication; so he spends the following 20 years without treatment. Now he's 40 and he's never used finasteride.

Even if it took 10 years to "catch up" in situation A, would it make sense to you that that man had the same level of baldness at 40 regardless of which path he took (situation A or B)?
In situation A his hair stands 10 years of mild AR activation plus 10 years of strong AR activation, whereas in situation B his hair has to stand strong AR activation throughout 20 years. It wouldn't make sense to me that his hair ended up the same! To me it's like comparing 10 years "clean" + 10 years smoking versus 20 years smoking, I think that lungs would notice the difference!
Again, take into account that it's not a matter of "with propecia you don't see the fast minoxidil fallout", for situation A has 10 years to 'catch up'. It's that hypothetical "catching up" what I wouldn't understand, whatever time it takes.

 

[Britannia]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

Situation A: A man starts using finasteride when he is 20 years old and takes it for 10 years (until he is 30 years old) and, after that, he spends 10 years of his life without taking it. Now he is forty years old.

Situation B: We go back in time and the same man, at age 20, decides not to take any medication; so he spends the following 20 years without treatment. Now he's 40 and he's never used finasteride.

I believe that the man in situation A would have roughly the same amount of hair (and I mean very roughly) that the man in situation B had at 30 years old, i.e. the man in situation B has is 10 years in front of the man in situation A in terms of male pattern baldness.
We must remember though that male pattern baldness will stabilse after a given amount of time. So some people will take 10 years from the start of thinning to reach a Norwood 7 where hair loss will cease and others will take 50 years. Therefore if the man in the two situations above were to reach hair loss stabilization after only 10 years then they would both have the same amount of hair at the end of both situations.

 

[Bryan]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

That's precisely what I can't understand... it's not a matter of speed, because even if it doesn't "catch up" until several years later it still doesn't make sense to me.

I wasn't very clear in what I said. What I should have said, what I meant to say is that I don't think there's enough long-term data to settle once and for all how long it takes for hairloss to "catch up", OR EVEN IF IT REALLY CATCHES UP AT ALL.

Bryan

 

[chewbaca]

Here's my take on it....

I thinkt he guy who start early may get to keep his hair longer than the guy who started late

Why? The earlier started guy is still young, has mild AR activation and his body is still young and have better chances of regrowth. he may even have some chances the body may adapt to effectiveness to the propecia and his hairloss may not be severe when he reaches 40.

the guy who started late will have some damage already done. So he may not have and have slim changes to reverse the damage.

As we know male pattern baldness gradually destroys hair till fibrosis sets in

This is the analogy i use. Does it make sense?

 

[Dave001]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

I generally agree with what Britannia said: the loss you get after stopping finasteride is apparently considerably slower than what you get when you stop using minoxidil, at least in the short-term. However, I do think it's rather uncertain just exactly how long it takes for your hairloss to "catch up" after stopping finasteride in the long-term, because we don't have any data for that.

That's precisely what I can't understand... it's not a matter of speed, because even if it doesn't "catch up" until several years later it still doesn't make sense to me.
Let's suppose...

Situation A: A man starts using finasteride when he is 20 years old and takes it for 10 years (until he is 30 years old) and, after that, he spends 10 years of his life without taking it. Now he is forty years old.

Situation B: We go back in time and the same man, at age 20, decides not to take any medication; so he spends the following 20 years without treatment. Now he's 40 and he's never used finasteride.

Even if it took 10 years to "catch up" in situation A, would it make sense to you that that man had the same level of baldness at 40 regardless of which path he took (situation A or B)?
In situation A his hair stands 10 years of mild AR activation plus 10 years of strong AR activation, whereas in situation B his hair has to stand strong AR activation throughout 20 years. It wouldn't make sense to me that his hair ended up the same! To me it's like comparing 10 years "clean" + 10 years smoking versus 20 years smoking, I think that lungs would notice the difference!
Again, take into account that it's not a matter of "with propecia you don't see the fast minoxidil fallout", for situation A has 10 years to 'catch up'. It's that hypothetical "catching up" what I wouldn't understand, whatever time it takes.

1) There's probably at least a short-term rebound related to increased androgen receptor sensitivity and/or steroidal enzyme metabolism after cessation of finasteride.

2) Other genetic interactions with time, most of which are undefined.

The progression of Androgenetic Alopecia isn't simply of a function of gross androgen receptor activation over time.

 

[triton2]

Re: Bryan:quitting finasteride hairloss & finasteride losing effect thru

1) There's probably at least a short-term rebound related to increased androgen receptor sensitivity and/or steroidal enzyme metabolism after cessation of finasteride.

I think we might be able to minimize that effect if we tapper down fina's dosages. In the case of dutasteride, that rebound effect should be smaller, for dutasteride has a really long half life.

2) Other genetic interactions with time, most of which are undefined.

The progression of Androgenetic Alopecia isn't simply of a function of gross androgen receptor activation over time.

But even if it's not simply a function of AR activation, it's clear that AR activation is one of the key variables in such function. There are surely many more variables, as you say, but being AR activation one of the most important, if not the most important, I think that if the value of that variable is higher, given the fact that the other variables remained the same, the value of the function should surely be higher also.

 

[chewbaca]

we may need to find out from those old veterans who stopped propecia...
Please come forwad to give yr expereince.

 

[TheOliviaTremorControl]

Yeah I think people misunderstood.

Maybe I'm wrong in this, too, but heres been my understanding for a while.


Okay, in VIOLET will be Timeline A, who DOESN'T take propecia.
In BLUE is the same person, but we went back in time and gave him propecia.

YEAR ONE
Norwood 2
Norwood 2


YEAR TEN
Norwood 4
Norwood 0


At this point, Bluey McBlue-erson halts propecia use. According to statistics, all the hair he gained with propecia will be lost after a year

YEAR ELEVEN
Norwood 4
Norwood 2 *Where he started out

YEAR TWENTY
Norwood 6
Norwood 4 Basically, where Violet was ten years ago.



YEAR THIRTY
Norwood 8
Norwood 6 *Still not on finasteride


I think thats how it goes.
After finasteride discontinuation, you LOSE whatever hair you GAINED with Finasteride. But after you stop finasteride, the hair that you *MAINTAINED* with Finasteride would fall out at the same slow rate that it would normally have fell out.

At least I think thats how it goes?

Someone more enlightened than I can either point out I am right, and my use of colors are excellent (I even colored in the lines).
or they will point out how wrong I am and chastize me.[/list][/list]

 

[kim jong il]

Please see my recent post.

If you stop finasteride you'll catch up to where you would have been if you hadn't taken it at all. no question about that, and it doesn't take long. Don't doubt it.