Australian election

[somone uk]

Richard Stallman (gnu founder and obsessive software "freedom" campaigner) on his website has urged Aussies to vote green because they want to get rid of australias internet filter

idk why the greens didn't win the Australian elections because it basically shows that they would rather have someone who is obsessive about censoring as much media as possible or someone who is actually stupid enough to be against stem cell research
and since australia has STV it's not like there is any requirement to tactically vote

http://www.itwire.com/it-policy-news/go ... ns?start=1

 

[HughJass]

idk why the greens didn't win the Australian elections because it basically shows that they would rather have someone who is obsessive about censoring as much media as possible or someone who is actually stupid enough to be against stem cell research

The greens did win, in a way. They peeled off enough votes from Labor to effectively sink the internet filter, so it's not quite accurate to say people endorsed Labor's ultra-dumb sh*t idea to save the children with a china style firewall.

I think plenty of Labor voters saw the filter as truly awful policy, it was just something done to placate conservative Christians courted by Rudd and Conroy. Now we have an atheist running the country, not to mention a senate full of them

[youtube:n3u9ucc8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns3M1Sj6x4o[/youtube:n3u9ucc8]

 

[somone uk]

:hump: :hump: :hump:

policies arn't too bad actually lol

i spose greens did have a good swing but only have 1 seat in the lower house (idk which house does what like idk how it works in the uk)

 

[Draco88]

^^Many people don't seem to actually read into what the Greens economic plans are: Point three on their website "the free market economy, by externalising the environmental and social costs of greenhouse gas emissions is creating the greatest market failure of all time, namely climate change." It's the free market economy that gives us jobs and has driven the Western world towards unparalleled progress.

Point 6: # the fulfilment of human potential and the enrichment of lives is best achieved when people work together for common goals. And who are they to say how human potential and enrichment of lives is best achieved? 'Common goals' sounds like a communist ideology.

Point 7: sustainable, equitable economic progress is best achieved by government ownership of natural monopolies and new government investment in strategic assets.
This one is just screwed up in so many ways...you can tell government ownership worked ever so well in Eastern Europe.

Point 10: governments have an important role to play in regulating markets and correcting market failures, but markets where they function well have an important role to play in the allocation of resources.
No, governments should have very minimal role in regulating markets, it's becaues of such involvements that there are market failures.

There's more crap there but this one just makes it even more clear that the Greens are dangerous ensure that natural monopolies and other essential public services are under public ownership.

The Greens are advocating for a complete socialist styled government, which would be a disaster for the Australian state.

You have to be taking the piss. You honestly don't believe that inaction on this issue represents an even bigger threat to our lifestyles?

Maybe I'm just not seeing how un-Australian it is to question the wisdom of a lifestyle based on unrestrained consumption in a world with finite resources, better just to heat the globe to melting point! :shakehead:

...because the world just so happens to be on the edge of total and utter destruction?

I think what he is saying is that the environment doesn't matter as much as his 'right' to consume as much as he wants

:jackit: i won't bother..

 

[HughJass]

It's the free market economy that gives us jobs and has driven the Western world towards unparalleled progress.

The western world's economic and technological progress has been driven by cheap oil, which has been obtained through the use of force. Guess what's running out and giving us a massive pollution problem ?

...because the world just so happens to be on the edge of total and utter destruction?

Keep sticking your head in the sand then. The country is leaving people like you behind.

 

[somone uk]

^^Many people don't seem to actually read into what the Greens economic plans are: Point three on their website "the free market economy, by externalising the environmental and social costs of greenhouse gas emissions is creating the greatest market failure of all time, namely climate change." It's the free market economy that gives us jobs and has driven the Western world towards unparalleled progress.

greenhouse gases have contributed to the loss of 1000's if not millions of lives it's also causing economic problems
we don't have a sustainable amount of coal
we don't have a sustainable amount of oil
a free market can still exist if we taxed emissions etc
science (which has often been state funded) has had the biggest influence on western prosperity

Point 6: # the fulfilment of human potential and the enrichment of lives is best achieved when people work together for common goals. And who are they to say how human potential and enrichment of lives is best achieved? 'Common goals' sounds like a communist ideology.

histogen, ARI and follica have common goals, are they all communists?
i am sure all research microbiologists have the common goal of curing disease, are they communist?
i was about to not reply to this because it sounded like typical 50's redscare which lost all rationality after the Berlin wall collapsed

Point 7: sustainable, equitable economic progress is best achieved by government ownership of natural monopolies and new government investment in strategic assets.
This one is just screwed up in so many ways...you can tell government ownership worked ever so well in Eastern Europe.

i have no objection to the government buying shares like anyone else can and if they manage to gather a majority control, that's how capitalism works though i don't agree with them forcibly confiscating the shares but if the government decided to buy stock above market value then it's fair game
i would also like to remind you that nationalised rail, gas and telecoms worked well with the uk until that b**ch Margaret Thatcher sold them off :X

Point 10: governments have an important role to play in regulating markets and correcting market failures, but markets where they function well have an important role to play in the allocation of resources.
No, governments should have very minimal role in regulating markets, it's becaues of such involvements that there are market failures.

well that's the typical left opinion and you gave back a typical right opinion
most market failures come when there is absolutely no regulation like with the recent recession there was no regulation of the banks

nationalisation isn't that bad, we still have a nationalised postal service and even though people do complain about it i am sure they will still send a letter with the queen firmly stamped on the top corner despite the alternatives
though i sure would like the right to democratically veto the CEO of royal mail for someone who is a little more realistic

 

[Draco88]

^^The less the government owns in terms of property/money, the better.

histogen, ARI and follica have common goals, are they all communists?
i am sure all research microbiologists have the common goal of curing disease, are they communist?

I don't like the way many of these left wing political parties/movements word their ideas..they didn't mention 'companies' or 'research groups' rather just 'people' then again companies etc would follow under people...just that such left wing parties use that as a common theme 'common goal' as if to promote a collectivist society.

The western world's economic and technological progress has been driven by cheap oil, which has been obtained through the use of force. Guess what's running out and giving us a massive pollution problem ?

I don't see countries these days going to war explicitly for oil.

Keep sticking your head in the sand then. The country is leaving people like you behind.

I'll keep on sticking my head in the "I'm skeptical about the big picture of it all since i don't readily follow some new movement that's designed to make me feel bad for living"

 

[The Gardener]

I don't see countries these days going to war explicitly for oil.

Really?

You cannot be serious.

 

[HughJass]

I don't see countries these days going to war explicitly for oil.

Really?

You cannot be serious.

Ignorance is becoming fashionable down here. We have our very own tea party as well.

 

[HughJass]

I'll keep on sticking my head in the "I'm skeptical about the big picture of it all since i don't readily follow some new movement that's designed to make me feel bad for living"

Not surprising. Most people who delude themselves into believe climate change is made up, do so for comfort.


Granted, it's a big scary thing to confront and some people just can't hack it.

 

[Draco88]

I don't see countries these days going to war explicitly for oil.

Really?

You cannot be serious.

Note the word 'explicitly'.

Ignorance is becoming fashionable down here. We have our very own tea party as well.[/qoute]
Yeah and jumping on the hippy-go green band wagon, nevermind about having your own mind to think, just follow what the hype is and feel bad about living, is becoming far more fashionable than wearing flip flops.

[quote:8gzx9kp0]Not surprising. Most people who delude themselves into believe climate change is made up, do so for comfort.

Granted, it's a big scary thing to confront and some people just can't hack it.

[/quote:8gzx9kp0]
Uh, where exactly did i say that climate change is made up? You sound like one of those typical socialist/lefty types who read claim 'a' by random person x, then state that the actual claim was 'z'. I started off by saying that i do think that carbon emissions need to be reduced, but not at our expense. Oh and trying to get at me with subtle insults just shows how mature you are.

 

[somone uk]

even if you don't belive in climate change can't you recognise that the oil an coal supply is limited
in the uk petrol prices are so high i actually calculated that it's cheaper to make your own biodiesel than to get diesel from the pump (provided you have a local bulk seller of methanol, lye and cooking oil)

 

[Draco88]

even if you don't belive in climate change can't you recognise that the oil an coal supply is limited
in the uk petrol prices are so high i actually calculated that it's cheaper to make your own biodiesel than to get diesel from the pump (provided you have a local bulk seller of methanol, lye and cooking oil)

I believe in climate change though and that oil and coal supply is limited. I never stated otherwise. I also think that's it's vital that Western nations heavily invest in alternative energy generating technology, such as solar power, wind power etc from what i know, Germany is on the right track, and whichever states set themselves up properly now, they'll be the ones who come out on top in the near future when peak oil comes about (which i think is predicted within the next 2-3 years).

Keep in mind though that electric cars will put an even heavier burden on the electric grid, since if everyone started driving one, then there'll be more of a demand for electricity, and where will all the power come from if not fossil fuels? Solar and wind is unpredictable, plus they wouldn't reach the demand..hydro-electric power plants would be good though.

 

[somone uk]

even if you don't belive in climate change can't you recognise that the oil an coal supply is limited
in the uk petrol prices are so high i actually calculated that it's cheaper to make your own biodiesel than to get diesel from the pump (provided you have a local bulk seller of methanol, lye and cooking oil)

I believe in climate change though and that oil and coal supply is limited. I never stated otherwise. I also think that's it's vital that Western nations heavily invest in alternative energy generating technology, such as solar power, wind power etc from what i know, Germany is on the right track, and whichever states set themselves up properly now, they'll be the ones who come out on top in the near future when peak oil comes about (which i think is predicted within the next 2-3 years).

Keep in mind though that electric cars will put an even heavier burden on the electric grid, since if everyone started driving one, then there'll be more of a demand for electricity, and where will all the power come from if not fossil fuels? Solar and wind is unpredictable, plus they wouldn't reach the demand..hydro-electric power plants would be good though.

we'll definitely need more HE power especially since as you recognise a commonly missed problem with renewable sources is that the supply isn't ever really in sync with demand
which HE can fix
the germans did well with a feed in tarriff but i have to say it has wielded disappointing results in the uk, we have been promised extortionate rates feed in rates (like 25p a unit) for buying pv and a couple of companies that install free PV provided they keep the feed in tariff money but i delivered the phone directories in some of the well off areas of my town and have yet to see a house with pv and this is with people who could easily afford it.

i just see what is overall an appaling effort being put in towards green energy, anyone (well most people) could buy a house 15k under budget and install PV and money saved/earned could easily pay towards the mortgage

car companies can make a decent electric car but they don't, they just turn out shite, this is an example what we could do 6 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica (i know it's a bit pricey to make but if you take into account the bugatti veryon costs about $7million you can see how you get more for your money)
but they instead turn out crappy vehicles like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_ED

so tbh i can't imagine people using electric cars any time soon, we just have to wait until we get a halfway decent vehicle into production first
i also find it very disappointing that manufactures have missed a couple of tricks for example a transmission is completely redundant in an electric vehicle, the wheels could be independently and directly driven and secondly the cars can have a capacitor for regenerative braking which only a few manufactures include

 

[Bryan]

Keep in mind though that electric cars will put an even heavier burden on the electric grid, since if everyone started driving one, then there'll be more of a demand for electricity, and where will all the power come from if not fossil fuels?

Considering what you just said, what is even the reason for all the interest in electric cars? Do they really have any advantage at all, or is it all just a big fad?

 

[Draco88]

the germans did well with a feed in tarriff but i have to say it has wielded disappointing results in the uk, we have been promised extortionate rates feed in rates (like 25p a unit) for buying pv and a couple of companies that install free PV provided they keep the feed in tariff money but i delivered the phone directories in some of the well off areas of my town and have yet to see a house with pv and this is with people who could easily afford it.

I would have thought that the UK would be on the right track, but it doesn't seem so. You guys have some good opportunities for hydro-electric power plants from what i know, wind power too.

car companies can make a decent electric car but they don't, they just turn out shite, this is an example what we could do 6 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliica (i know it's a bit pricey to make but if you take into account the bugatti veryon costs about $7million you can see how you get more for your money)
but they instead turn out crappy vehicles like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_ED

That's a pretty cool car (the Eliica), but thing is many of them just seem to be novelty type automobiles these days. I've read a bit about the Smart ED and i don't like it, there are still some draw backs to these types of vehicles.

so tbh i can't imagine people using electric cars any time soon, we just have to wait until we get a halfway decent vehicle into production first
i also find it very disappointing that manufactures have missed a couple of tricks for example a transmission is completely redundant in an electric vehicle, the wheels could be independently and directly driven and secondly the cars can have a capacitor for regenerative braking which only a few manufactures include

I don't think electric cars will pick up that quickly either, at least for now..so long as oil remains somewhat offordable (if it isn't already). But eventually i think we'll end up driving some form of hybrid car.

Considering what you just said, what is even the reason for all the interest in electric cars? Do they really have any advantage at all, or is it all just a big fad?

Well there's always been some fascination with electric vehicles..but these days it's more so to do with finding alternate means to propel your car (other than oil and the likes). They do have their advantages, yet i also think it's a combination of them being a fad too (well since anything that's different from the norm, usually becomes a fad until it becomes the norm). An obvious advantage is that they have 0 emissions (or they may have some, depending if it's a hybrid car that partly relies on fuel), another advantage is that they convert the electrical energy into mechanical energy much more efficiently than an internal combustion engine does from fuel energy to mechanical. One main disadvantage is that electric cars just can't travel as further as our fuel driven ones..but this is also up to our cities, who, if electric cars do become the norm, will have to provide the infrastructure for recharging such cars and thus make it viable to drive one.

There are some really interesting technologies out there, which means there are many other ways that an electric car could generate/gain energy, other than the classical battery powered way.

 

[Bryan]

Considering what you just said, what is even the reason for all the interest in electric cars? Do they really have any advantage at all, or is it all just a big fad?

An obvious advantage is that they have 0 emissions (or they may have some, depending if it's a hybrid car that partly relies on fuel)...

How do the emissions of a gasoline-powered car compare to the extra emissions from an electrical power-generating plant which would be required to supply the electrical energy to run a car of the same size and weight, and with the same speed and acceleration?

...another advantage is that they convert the electrical energy into mechanical energy much more efficiently than an internal combustion engine does from fuel energy to mechanical.

What about the losses from the transmission of that electrical energy over very long distances from the electical power plant, to the places where the cars are recharged? What about the "self-discharge" rates of storage batteries, where the charge will inevitably dissipate over a relatively short period of time, even when the vehicle isn't being used (gasoline doesn't evaporate anywhere _nearly_ as fast from a vehicle's fuel tank, compared to the self-discharge of storage batteries! )? Taking those things into consideration, do you have a number which compares the ultimate efficiencies of those two approaches, percentage-wise?

One main disadvantage is that electric cars just can't travel as further as our fuel driven ones..but this is also up to our cities, who, if electric cars do become the norm, will have to provide the infrastructure for recharging such cars and thus make it viable to drive one.

Compared to those other issues I've cited, I think that's pretty small potatoes.

 

[somone uk]

Considering what you just said, what is even the reason for all the interest in electric cars? Do they really have any advantage at all, or is it all just a big fad?

An obvious advantage is that they have 0 emissions (or they may have some, depending if it's a hybrid car that partly relies on fuel)...

How do the emissions of a gasoline-powered car compare to the extra emissions from an electrical power-generating plant which would be required to supply the electrical energy to run a car of the same size and weight, and with the same speed and acceleration?

depends which country you live in, in France where the majority of their power is nuclear you could easily say electric cars have lower emissions but in china i could say gasoline would emit less CO2 in china

...another advantage is that they convert the electrical energy into mechanical energy much more efficiently than an internal combustion engine does from fuel energy to mechanical.

What about the losses from the transmission of that electrical energy over very long distances from the electical power plant, to the places where the cars are recharged? What about the "self-discharge" rates of storage batteries, where the charge will inevitably dissipate over a relatively short period of time, even when the vehicle isn't being used (gasoline doesn't evaporate anywhere _nearly_ as fast from a vehicle's fuel tank, compared to the self-discharge of storage batteries! )? Taking those things into consideration, do you have a number which compares the ultimate efficiencies of those two approaches, percentage-wise?

what about the losses transporting lots of oil, oil tankers don't run for free
i cant imagine an electrical transmission 100 miles being less efficient than an oil tanker travelling 50000 miles there are also energy costs in distillation, cracking etc
i could caclautate a rough end-to-end effecientcy for electric but i can't for gasoline so it would be quite meaningless

One main disadvantage is that electric cars just can't travel as further as our fuel driven ones..but this is also up to our cities, who, if electric cars do become the norm, will have to provide the infrastructure for recharging such cars and thus make it viable to drive one.

Compared to those other issues I've cited, I think that's pretty small potatoes.

well i don't know anyone who fills their petrol tank fully so i can't say but my concern is that we live in a world where people can barely remember to keep their mobile phone charged so how can they possibly remember to keep their car charged

 

[Bryan]

depends which country you live in, in France where the majority of their power is nuclear you could easily say electric cars have lower emissions but in china i could say gasoline would emit less CO2 in china

Interesting. Since most electricity generating plants in the US are coal-powered, and I suspect the same is true of China, would you say that the same is true here in the US (gasoline engines emit less CO2)?

what about the losses transporting lots of oil, oil tankers don't run for free
i cant imagine an electrical transmission 100 miles being less efficient than an oil tanker travelling 50000 miles there are also energy costs in distillation, cracking etc
i could caclautate a rough end-to-end effecientcy for electric but i can't for gasoline so it would be quite meaningless

But think about what happens to the efficiency of an electric car when it parks at the curb, unused, for a month or two! Most of that electrical energy that you pumped into it earlier is now GONE, right down the toilet! :shock:

In any event, I don't see that it would be THAT difficult to get some reasonably accurate numbers for a direct, head-to-head comparison of efficiencies between gasoline-powered cars and electric cars. Simply knowing the price of gasoline and the price of electricity in kilowatt-hours should get you a good part of the way home on that one! Then you plug-in the number of charges it takes you to drive 100 miles in a typical electric car, and the mileage that a gasoline-powered car of the same size and weight gets, then do a little arithmetic, and voila! You've got the direct comparison (not counting the energy you waste when the electric car sits unused)!

 

[HughJass]

Uh, where exactly did i say that climate change is made up?

I'll keep on sticking my head in the "I'm skeptical about the big picture of it all....

:whistle: