Attacking DHT from every angle (please evaluate my theory)

skeaze

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As a newbie whose been roaming this board for some time now, I just have to say thanks for everyone's honest and detailed contributions to this site. Now, it's my turn to try to return the favor. I know this looks long, but please read it. I haven't run across a thread here in which this specific topic was addressed. If there is one, chalk it up to me being new here...

Long story short, I'm a 24 year old male who first starting noticing general thinning on the whole top of my head when I was 19 years old. My frontal hairline is still intact, although it's shown some loss in recent years. I quickly got on Propecia for about a year and a half at age 19, got frustrated (probably more denial than not seeing results, but I couldn't say for sure that I was getting any results), and quit using it. Recently, that moment came when my hair loss really hit me and I knew I had to do something about it.

Instead of getting on Propecia again, I wanted to be a little more "aggressive". I obtained an Avodart prescription and have been taking .5mb/day for about 3 weeks (no visible changes yet, as expected). I did a lot of the research on this (I'm also a med student) and I can't see why it won't be better than Propecia - but that's a whole different discussion. In conjunction with this I'm using 5% minoxidil at bedtime (once daily). I can't use it in the day because (a) my scalp already kills me and (b) it's so greasy, I can't go to school like that.

So, in theory, I am stopping somewhere around 90% of DHT production in my scalp - good for maintenance.

Now comes an idea I took from the Hair Club people. I don't know if they were just trying to rip me off but I think the logic is sound. Hair Club, of course, said that the first step to take is to block DHT production via 5AR inhibitors - DONE. Then they magnified my scalp and pointed to what they said was sebum oil containing DHT. I don't know if that was sebum oil but I agreed with their theory that the PRE-EXISTING DHT has to be removed if I wanted the best possible results. They "recommended" their costly program where they claim to use enzymes and vasodilation techniques to remove the DHT while providing nutrients to the dying follicles, in addition to saw palmetto. Makes sense to me, but I'm not paying for it.

The only product I could find on the market that claimed to REMOVE pre-existing DHT from the scalp was the Revivogen Bio-Cleansing Shampoo. It claims to have enzymes to clear the pre-existing DHT. Since I was already using a 5AR inhibitor and minoxidil, I opted to purchase only the shampoo. Sounds like a good plan, right?

I would appreciate any info on Revivogen's shampoo ONLY, i.e. if you think it does what it claims to do. I realize that Revivogen's instructions tell you it won't work on it's own but I have the equivalent of the other products they say to use in conjunction with the shampoo. I also know it "wouldn't hurt". But what I really want to get a sense of is if everyone thinks this regiment is realistically worth a damn or the money it costs versus just using the Avodart and minoxidil.

The logic, in my opinion, is sound. Let's get your thoughts!

(I promise to keep it way shorter next time!)
 

Axon

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You're better off with either Nizoral or T-Gel for your scalp. I don't think any shampoo that will be on your head for less than 5 minutes will have ANY long-standing effect on scalp DHT.

Don't bank on Shampoos. If you really want to hit DHT from a topical angle, spironolactone is the undisputed champion.

Avodart v. Finasteride: There are MANY more potent anti-androgens than Finasteride, and yet, not a one is more efficient at treating the mechanism of male pattern baldness. If you figure out why, please let us know. ;)
 

neonman1212

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I wonder if medical science isn't just chasing a red heron with DHT. DHT may just play a small part in the complex process of hair loss. Even if you got rid of 100 percent of DHT would it make much difference? Your hair follicles are genetically programmed to shut down, and that’s what there going to do, DHT or no DHT.
 

wolfe

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I'm on Revivogen shampoo as my non-nizoral. I doubt that it really can "cleanse away DHT", I think getting rid of it is a little more complicated than that. You might want to purchase real Revivogen, which seems to be a popular topical treatment. My thought is that once you limit the serum DHT long enough the original DHT in the follicles probably dissipates with time. That probably has something to do with why some people take a year to see results while others see them in 4-5 months.
 

Axon

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neonman1212 said:
I wonder if medical science isn't just chasing a red heron with DHT. DHT may just play a small part in the complex process of hair loss. Even if you got rid of 100 percent of DHT would it make much difference? Your hair follicles are genetically programmed to shut down, and that’s what there going to do, DHT or no DHT.

If you cut off your balls you will not lose any more hair. It will not grow back, but it won't continue shrinking.

I'm serious.
 

neonman1212

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Axon wrote:
If you cut off your balls you will not lose any more hair.

Believe it or not, the dermatologist I went to told me that in those exact same words in his office (which caused his female assistant to turn red with embracement). Then again this is the same dermatologist that told me Rogaine was guaranteed to stop my hair lose, which it didn't. So I really don't believe a dam thing dermatologists say.
 

Axon

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In this case it's true....there are a number of documented cases of castration stopping hairloss to a point.

Regrowth, however, is a whole other story.
 

skeaze

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thanks for the quick replies guys!

axon, that's an interesting comment you make about the efficacy of treating male pattern baldness with finasteride. i agree with you when you say there exists anti-androgens that are more potent than finasteride. however, to the best of my knowledge there aren't any studies that put finasteride head to head with dutasteride in the context of treating male pattern baldness. if i am wrong, please post a link showing otherwise.

are you saying it's your belief (based on science or otherwise) that finasteride has definite and demonstrably more effective ability to counter male pattern baldness than does dutasteride? are you saying that it's definitely better than dutasteride based on research? when comparing two treatments, there's a difference between saying something is "better" (based on research that compared two treatments) and saying something is "better" because the alternative treatment has just simply never been proven in reserach. in short, has anybody actually proven that finasteride is a better treatment than dutasteride for treating male pattern baldness specifically?

thanks again
 

Axon

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Re: thanks for the quick replies guys!

skeaze said:
axon, that's an interesting comment you make about the efficacy of treating male pattern baldness with finasteride. i agree with you when you say there exists anti-androgens that are more potent than finasteride. however, to the best of my knowledge there aren't any studies that put finasteride head to head with dutasteride in the context of treating male pattern baldness. if i am wrong, please post a link showing otherwise.

are you saying it's your belief (based on science or otherwise) that finasteride has definite and demonstrably more effective ability to counter male pattern baldness than does dutasteride? are you saying that it's definitely better than dutasteride based on research? when comparing two treatments, there's a difference between saying something is "better" (based on research that compared two treatments) and saying something is "better" because the alternative treatment has just simply never been proven in reserach. in short, has anybody actually proven that finasteride is a better treatment than dutasteride for treating male pattern baldness specifically?

thanks again

Preliminary results from Dutasteride studies vary. The ones I can recall typically show a +50 increase to haircounts when compared to Finasteride. So basically, you might get 50 more hairs overall.

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/newsletter/article96.htm

A good look at what I'm getting at.

With Dutasteride, you risk more side effects, you pay more for the drug (at this point) and you take a chance on the extensive half-life. But then, Duta might turn out to be as safe as water....who knows? I am not "down" on Dutasteride, but judging by the above results, I just do not think it is REMARKABLY more effective than Finasteride. At least not enough to justify using it over Fina, which has served me well.
 

scottp999

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I agree 100% with axon. I was on proscar 1.25 mg from Aug 1998 to Dec 2002. I really just stopped any more hjair loss. I swithced to avodart Dec 21 2002 and I would say there may have been some small amount of regrowth. I noticed a very small difference. When I added minoxidil 5% 2x per day I saw dense regrowth in 4-5 months from the combination.

Stick with propecia/proscar if $ are a factor as well as safety. I can't say enough about the results of adding minoxidil. Simply amazing.
 

skeaze

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thanks for the input scott!

i hear what you guys are saying about finasteride. i guess i just wasn't convinced with the results i got when i was using it. i realize that the unknown side-effects are a legitimate concern but it's also important to remember that this drug is approved by the fda for bph. it's not just some new drug from god knows where. another thing, in response to axon's earlier commments, is that the study you referenced said you might get 50 or so more hairs. but that's an average figure. if two people were in the study and one gained 200 hairs and the other lost 200 (i.e. the treatment didn't work for him), you could say that the average regrowth was 0 hairs. however, the guy who grew the 200 new hairs is probably pretty damn happy. i realize that the sample size for a test is much larger but the point is, it's just an average. results vary. but then again, even 200 new hairs isn't a ton. however, i'd be happy with every single new hair i could have on my head. but like i said before, that's a whole other debate. however, i do want to say i certainly respect your knowledge and your logic. i definitely appreciate and NEED all the viewpoints available. i guess i'm just optimistic about avodart!

$ is not really an issue because i'm able to get avodart from a friend.

with regard to the minoxidil. as i mentioned before, i use the 5% but i can really only tolerate it once a day. obviously, some is better than none but do you guys think the once-a-day application has a decent chance of giving me noticeable results?
 

Axon

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Well, if you can get Avodart, I'd say go for it. Watch your libido and such closely. I wouldn't expect significantly different results from Finasteride, but you never know, I suppose. We just won't know for sure until someone approves Dutasteride for male pattern baldness.

I use Minoxidil once a day and it is effective - I have seen cosmetically significant results.

Have you thought of a non-Propene Glycol version? Or Minoxidil from Dr. Lee, which has far less (30% to 50%) Propene Glycol than Upjohn's Rogaine? Both are less irritating to the scalp, and Dr. Lee's Minoxidil is dry and not noticable to the touch within 20 minutes as opposed to 2 hours with standard Minoxidil. It is worth a look.
 

skeaze

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axon,

thanks for the continued interest. i'm definitely going to look into those other minoxidil formulations you've recommended. i never knew there was different kinds. i was just using walgreens brand!

thanks again, i'll let you know how it goes!

skeaze
 

regain

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This may sound a bit crude, but stop musterbating and cut down on sex and watch your hair thicken. I know lot of experts in the hair regrowth industry will deny that sex has anything to do with hair thinning but I think people know better from experience. There is definately more than a casual link between the two.
 

skeaze

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evidence to back that up?
 
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