Approaching five yrs on finasteride -- what now?

chewbaca

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Petchsky said:
I'm unsure too, but i know testosterone decreases as you age, so that suggests to me that DHT also does. I think over time DHT just chips away at the follicule and thats why everyone eventually sees some loss of hair.

Less teste, less DHT but increased senstivity...Hmm....well because of DHT...so the logical thing is to a switch to dusteride which inhibits 90%if not all of DHT....Why dont MErc invent a new Propecia with Dust as he active ingredient?.....
 

20sometingtoo

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Hmm... I wonder if you stop finasteride for a year and then start again will you be able to fool your body into thinking you never used it in the first place? Effectively gaining another 5 years?? Hmm....
Of course, some serious damage would be inflicted during that year of no treatment.

Hmm....

Hmm....?
 

drinkrum

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ropcat said:
Thanks everyone. Yeah, looking at the Propecia charts seems consistent with what DrinkRum says. The inhibition of DHT is not going to increase that much if I up my dose. I guess the DHT that finasteride isn't inhibiting is continuing to chip away at my hair -- although I suppose I'm lucky that I got a five-year reprieve.

I'm getting more interested in switching to Dutasteride, or a generic equivalent, though. The biggest deterrent until now for me was the price tag. But looking at the prices on imported generics has made me a bit more positive about the idea. I wish I could consult a dermatologist about this, rather than self-medicating. But my derm would never even go into the topic of using a drug not currently indicated for male pattern baldness, much less using an imported generic...

We'll see. I'm putting off any decisions on regimen changes until the summer, and then I'll also maybe start researching surgical options... Good luck to everyone! finasteride DOES work -- just not forever.

Finasteride DOES work forever. As long as you take it, it will continue to suppress DHT production. But the body changes with time and as you grow older, your follicles might become more susceptible to the remaining DHT, etc. The science behind this part of balding is still being reasoned out by the medical community.

Imagine never taking finasteride. You would've started balding at, say age 19, and the balding process would have accelerated for five years, so at age 24, the rate at which you are balding would be greater than at age 19. This is simply the process of balding as we know it. As mentioned, while this is well documented, the exact mechanism of this "balding acceleration" is unknown, but it is believed that the follicles are programmed genetically to become more susceptible to DHT as the balding process progresses.

While taking finasteride, this "acceleration" still goes on. So while you might be doing a good job blocking a lot of DHT, in the long-run, you might start to slowly bald again (but not as fast as if you hadn't taken finasteride). But the balding process works differently for each individual -- some people can take finasteride their entire lives and never be bothered with balding again -- maintaining their hair count for 10-15+ years. For other people, finasteride just doesn't work at all.

So while dutasteride does inhibit more DHT (90%) than finasteride (70%), the "acceleration effect" might still prevent complete hair loss prevention. Also, it could be that as DHT levels decrease in the body, the body increases sensitivity to DHT and DHT uptake. And DHT, since it inhibits both enzymes that produce DHT, can create more side-effects and has unknown long-term consequences. The AR-1 isozyme (finasteride only inhibits AR-2) is found in scalp skin but has been found in brain tissue (myelin sheath in neural cells!) and in connective tissue -- thus making it a potentially very dangerous enzyme to inhibit almost completely.

This is a long enough post, so I will end it here. I hope some of you out there can now better understand how this sh*t works. 8)

D.
 

ropcat

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Thanks Drinkrum. I guess I meant that finasteride doesn't lead to eternal hair maintenance for everyone, not that it somehow stops blocking the DHT formation. I have absolutely no doubt that I'm in much better shape than I would be had I not started finasteride four+ years back.

A few people on this thread have recommended generic Dutasteride to me, now that finasteride isn't doing the trick quite like it used to. But in various posts, I keep seeing side effects get referred to in passing (rapidly aging skin, extremely dry skin, etc) that I'd never even heard of. I wish there were a central clearing house on Dutasteride's side effects somewhere! (That is, besides the well-known side effects reported in the clinical trials.) Still mulling the switch...
 

mattam

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Hi all,

I am in similar situation as ropcat....I have been on finasteride for about 4 years.
It worked great for the first 2.5 years. Then I stopped taking for about 6 months and shed badly. Then I got back on it and in just 3 month time, I gained back nearly everything. Amazing, huh?

However, over the past 9 months I have been experiencing bad sheds all while I am still in 1mg finasteride -- two episodes actually. The first shed lasted 4.5 months. Then it stopped and I regained some....but this only lasted for 2 months and I began severe shed again...It has been 5.5 months now and I am still shedding...

Anyway, guess it seems like finasteride can loses its effectiveness even though it had initial great results....

My questions are:
1) Should I just stop finasteride and just live the with fact that I will go bald? If this shed won't stop should I just not take this drug that messes with my hormone when just in my 20s?

2) Where's the source of info that says that increase finasteride dosage won't impact DHT blocking? Is this on Merck's site?

Thanks for the help!
Matt
 

drinkrum

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1. The sheds are probably a good sign rather than an omen -- as hairs are switching growth phases. I would continue the finasteride for 6 more months and assess then.

2. There are many charts on the Web that show the relative effectiveness of taking more finasteride. From about 0.20 mg to 5 mg, the blockage of DHT is similar.

D.
 

Fallout Boy

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mattam dont give up the fight!!!!!! youre only in your 20's?? but its really a matter of choice and acceptance .. if you can live with baldness and it doesnt bother you then go ahead and stop but i would say try other treatments too!!!!
 

mattam

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thanks for the suggestions...

When I started shedding, I also thought that it's the "shed-for-the-better" type.

But now, I am at the stage that I am worse than when I started finasteride 4 years ago - a lot worse actually. I am at the stage that I am thinking about shaving my head. And I notice too that the the hair that has not shed are getting finer and finer. So I think that's finasteride losing its effectiveness...

Anyway, I guess I am really doing all that I can (finasteride and minoxidil). So, will follow your suggestion and stick with it for another 6 months.
 

20sometingtoo

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Mattam, I just recently buzzed (1.5 attachment) my hair and it looks fantastic. Not to say that I look good with a buzzed head (dont have the face for it) its just that I was very pleasantly surprised with how much hair I still have. If you buzz your hair short enough, you wont be able to tell that you have diffuse thinning. I think you'll find renewed confidence if its a look you can get used to.
 

thin=depressed

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Petchsky said:
If you look on this website you will find 5yr propecia studies which are positive. For some propecia may slowly not protect your hair as well, although stay on it as it will still be working.

dutasteride is an option that will probably work for you but its one powerful scary drug, to me anyway. If i was you my next step would be 5% minoxidil which, as someone earlier said, give you an extra 5 years maybe.

Proxiphen is also an option like the Ty man suggested.

Your fight is far from over. :yes:
Funny you should mention these products to be used because I'm using all of them right now to regrow. I've replaced rogaine with minoxidil powder stired into my home brew spray and I have a topical lotion which is everything anti-inflammation I could put in it plus vit and aminos. I've added a capsul of dutasteride to my forst bottle of brew (I'm on my second) with no bad effects at all. finasteride oral and dutasteride topical is safely usable.
 

Petchsky

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Sounds like quite a brew you got going there Thinster...lets hope there are not to many cooks.

Hows it working for you thus far?
 

too bald too furious

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Hi Ropcat,

You have saved your "minoxidil" weapon till now. Finasteride has done its job and given you 5 years.

Now its time for you to use minoxidil. This will again give you five more years and possibly after that some new treatment should be out.
 

ropcat

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nexus81 said:
Hi Ropcat, You have saved your "minoxidil" weapon till now. Finasteride has done its job and given you 5 years.

Now its time for you to use minoxidil. This will again give you five more years and possibly after that some new treatment should be out.

Thanks Nexus. Yeah, that's probably a good way to look at it: I held some weapons in reserve and now I can use them.

I thought I remembered a chart showing that minoxidil effectiveness starts to drop after year two (i.e. still stays above baseline, but haircounts start to go down). Does that sound right? Have you seen that study?
 

stax

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Ropcat, if your going to use minoxidil i suggest using Dr.Lee's Xandrox 15.It has Anzelic Acid in it that is supposed to stop the synthesis of DHT in your scalp.Also If you might want to try Revivogen.
 

too bald too furious

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ropcat said:
nexus81 said:
Hi Ropcat, You have saved your "minoxidil" weapon till now. Finasteride has done its job and given you 5 years.

Now its time for you to use minoxidil. This will again give you five more years and possibly after that some new treatment should be out.

Thanks Nexus. Yeah, that's probably a good way to look at it: I held some weapons in reserve and now I can use them.

I thought I remembered a chart showing that minoxidil effectiveness starts to drop after year two (i.e. still stays above baseline, but haircounts start to go down). Does that sound right? Have you seen that study?

minoxidil's effectiveness will not drop in a year or two. What happens is that minoxidil will provide you "regrowth" of new hairs for first two years or so and then it will not "regrow" as such any "new" hair, but will keep the the hairs it has grown in anagen phase longer.

But the balding process will continue and hence after 2 years...when you reach the 5 year mark or so, your hair count will again be almost the same as the baseline. So minoxidil has cheated your body to keep your hairs alive for 5 years.

Possibly after that HM should be widely available and you can go for that.

Personally...Id suggest you stay off from Dutasteride. Its side effects are not established yet. You may use a topical DHT inhibitor like spironolactone along with your minoxidil applications. That may give you more chances of success with minoxidil.
 

Fallout Boy

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I dont know if i would rely on HM being out within the next 10 years ... all we can do is hope but untill they get closer to perfecting or even getting HM to work theres no telling when it will be out.
 

too bald too furious

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fallout boy said:
I dont know if i would rely on HM being out within the next 10 years ... all we can do is hope but untill they get closer to perfecting or even getting HM to work theres no telling when it will be out.

Then you can go for FUE and cover your scalp. May not be a thick head of hair but hey...there is hair and you wont be called a cue ball. :wink:
 

ropcat

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Hi Nexus. Thanks for your remarks about long-term effectiveness on minoxidil. I’m definitely considering this, along with Stax’s suggestion to try Dr.Lee's Xandrox 15.

Nexus, I had a question about your comment that Dutasteride’s safety isn’t yet established. This is probably old news to you experienced hands on HairLossTalk.com, but I just found an Oct. 2004 article through Ovid that tracked patients in a two-year open extension of the initial two-year Dutasteride trials (i.e. the patients have now spent four years on the drug.) The abstract noted that:

“No new safety issues were noted with long-term therapy. Onset of new drug-related adverse events were reported most frequently at the start of therapy and declined over time in patients receiving dutasteride. … Dutasteride was also well tolerated in long-term use.â€

Eur Urol. 2004 Oct; 46 (4):488-94. “Efficacy and safety of long-term treatment with the dual 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor dutasteride in men with symptomatic benign prostatic hyperplasia.†Debruyne F, Barkin J, van Erps P, Reis M, Tammela TL, Roehrborn C.

So I’m wondering whether there are reasons why Dutasteride still shouldn’t be considered safe, even after four-year tracking of patients. Just wanted to get your (and everyone else’s) thoughts on that. Obviously, I want to be very deliberate and careful in the decisions that I make. Thanks! :)
 
G

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ropcat,
I personally would go with minoxidil 5%. I just think dutasteride is a bit too extreme.
 
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