Anti-estrogen in conjuction with Finesteride

[flipper2000]

I read a study a while back that suggested that all finesteride users should be on some form of anti estrogen such as nolvadex. The study said that it was crazy that so many people would take DHT inhibitor without this to counter act the estrogenic effects of having higher levels flowing through body and would counter gyno etc. I have been searching the net like mad to have a re-read, but i couldn't locate it.

One of my friends is a pro-bodybuilder and is one of the main reasons why have been trying to locate this study. He says that when he is on a cycle of steroids he takes nolvadex daily to counter the "itch" as he calls it. He used to get an itchy nipple with puffyness due to the excess amount of estrogen being converted from the high levels of sythetic testorone from the steroids. With nolvadex he says it instantly diminishes. The problem is nolvadex has risks too.

I was wondering if any one has read any studies on combining an anti-estrogen with finasteride, and what they think. From the study i read the prof was really angered that more doctors were not giving anti-estrogens with the finasteride, and said it was the most logical thing and finasteride should not be considered without it.

What do you guys think??

 

[Bertie]

As far as I know, there is one and only one study on the combined use of finasteride plus an anti-estrogen medication, that being Arimidex -- the infamous dog study. That study addressed BPH, not hair loss, and the dosages in question would be very high for each medication when translated to humans, but the results were very negative -- the prostate grew, not shrunk as it is supposed to do when you are on Proscar, and the hormone measurements were all negative from a BPH (or hair loss) standpoint.

But I may be wrong on this, after all, I wasn't around the hair loss community then and know what little I know from digging through the archives.

 

[flipper2000]

Thanks for response, i checked it out it doesn't seem to be the right study, still interesting though.

 

[RyanR]

Your bodybuilder friend is correct, although he doesn't explain it well. Arimidex is called a "suicide" inhibitor of Estrogen. It is an anti- aromatase drug. Aromatization is the process of Testosterone converting into Estrogen through the aromatase enzyme. When you block DHT, you increase testosterone levels enough to cause more aromatization of Test into Est. Also, the DHT molecule can bind to and block estogen receptors. So when you drop DHT levels, you have a higher incidence of gynocomastia due to:

1. Higher Test levels converting to Estrogen
2. Less DHT to "block" Estrogen from binding to receptors in the breast tissue area.

Using Arimidex is unwise. As I said, it is a "suicide" inhibitor and will reduce the formation of Estrogen to virtually nothing. You will prevent gyno, but increase hair loss in the long run. You see, Estrogen is a good thing in the right levels. It is neccessary for normal sexual function and healthy hair and skin. (Think of a woman's hair and skin). I know many bodybuilders who lose hair while on Arimedex or Femara (another suicide inhibitor).

A better option is to use Nolvadex. Nolvadex does not stop the formation of Estrogen, but instead "blocks" Estrogen at the Estrogen Receptor. It is called a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). Therefor, you still have the benefit of healthy levels of Estrogen, but it will block the "sensitive" receptors in the breast tissue. The problem is that Nolvadex (also called Tamoxifene) has a nasty effect on lipid profiles. It will raise LDL levels and lower HDL levels. NOT GOOD! :freaked:

So along comes the next generation of SERMs. The BEST candidate and most exciting drug in this category is called Toremifene. It is MORE effective than Nolvadex and actually has a POSITIVE effect on lipid profiles.

You only need to take enough of the drug to "reverse" gyno and then continue with small infrequent dosing to prevent future relapses. It will completely prevent gyno and will not impede your hair regrowth regimen.

 

[stax]

Why would you increase hairloss in the long run if taking finasteride or dutasteride, along with Arimidex?

Ive been using dutasteride with an aromatize inhibitor called AIMF which is stronger than Arimidex, and my results are great. using AIMF or Arimidex will raise testosterone levels, but if your using finasteride/dutasteride to block DHT then you will be fine.


Bodybuilders use finasteride/dutasteride to protect from losing hair while on buckets of roids, i hardly think Arimidex will make a difference, and i know people who use it with finasteride and have good results. Also, Arimidex at 1mg every day only reduces estrogen by 50%, which is not that strong. Estrogen has very little effect on protecting hair, and i think in men it can hurt more than it can help.

 

[H2O]

I was wondering if any one has read any studies on combining an anti-estrogen with finasteride, and what they think.

Here's a good resource on Arimidex.

http://www.farrellmanual.com/drugs/arimidex.htm

Basically an index on a lot of posts giving both the good and bad including recommended dosages. For Arimidex 1/2 tablet 2x a week is recommended as it IS in fact very powerful and you don't want to completely crush your estrogen levels in your body as there are benefits to estrogen, even in males.

1/2 tablet 2x a week seems to bring estrogen levels back down to a ballpark "normal" level in the "average" male. Hormone profile tests are recommended so you can see what you are actually doing to your hormone balance...

I realize these are not "Studies" per se but rather posts...but still a lot of information can be gleaned from the posts listed...even info from one of our resident scholars...Bryan

 

[H2O]

Arimidex at 1mg every day only reduces estrogen by 50%, which is not that strong. Estrogen has very little effect on protecting hair, and i think in men it can hurt more than it can help.

Stax...I would partially disagree here. Arimidex is quite potent and your 50% number...I would also say is on the low end for the dosages you are referring to...

 

[stax]

Arimidex definetly lowers estrogen by only around 50% at 0.5- 1mg per day.

Read:

http://www.steroid.com/Arimidex.php


"Many anabolic steroids aromatize (convert to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme), and this is responsible for many of the unwanted side effects found with anabolic steroid use (acne, gynocomastia, water-retention, etc...). In one study, both .5mg and 1mg doses of Arimidex were shown to decrease estrogen by roughly 50%. The 1mg/day dose also increased testosterone levels by 58% (1). In that same study, in both groups, LH and FSH also went up slightly."

 

[H2O]

Arimidex definetly lowers estrogen by only around 50% at 0.5- 1mg per day.

Read:

http://www.steroid.com/Arimidex.php


"Many anabolic steroids aromatize (convert to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme), and this is responsible for many of the unwanted side effects found with anabolic steroid use (acne, gynocomastia, water-retention, etc...). In one study, both .5mg and 1mg doses of Arimidex were shown to decrease estrogen by roughly 50%. The 1mg/day dose also increased testosterone levels by 58% (1). In that same study, in both groups, LH and FSH also went up slightly."

Fair enough...Thanks for the info

 

[stax]

No Prob 8)