Another nail in the coffin for Stephen Foote's theory!

Bryan

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Why does balding (male pattern baldness) seem to attract so many oddball theories about its causes and etiology? There's the recent thread about how "skull expansion" supposedly causes hair loss, and then there's Ernie Primeau's childish rantings about how body-hair steals nutrients before they can get to the scalp; and then there's Stephen Foote's curious idea that balding is caused by "pressure" on the hair follicles from a build-up of fluid (edema) in the scalp.

Not to belabor this issue too much, but years ago I asked Stephen why it is that even when you surgically remove hair follicles from the scalp and grow them in vitro, they show the same predictable response to androgens that they do when they're still on the scalp: the androgens suppress their growth. Why would they do that, since there's no "edema" in a Petri dish to hinder the hair follicles? Stephen's lame explanation for that phenomenon is that the pressure from the edema somehow PERMANENTLY alters the way they respond to androgens, so their growth is stunted that way, even after you remove them from the scalp and grow them in vitro.

Stephen has told me in the past that he would be a lot more accepting of the "Standard Theory" of balding if we could transplant hair follicles from the scalp to another location on the body BEFORE they started balding, and then see if they did indeed eventually start going bald at a later date. But unfortunately, I don't think such an interesting experiment is ever going to be done, at least on humans, because it would be unethical. I can't conceive of such an experiment ever being done on, say, a prepubertal boy who comes from a family with a strong history of balding. It would be nice to shut Stephen up once and for all, but they're just not going to do such an invasive experiment on a child or adolescent, just for the benefit of science.

But recently I came across an old study in which this experiment _was_ performed; not in humans, but in stumptailed macaques: "Studies of Common Baldness of the Stump-Tailed Macaque (Macaca speciosa)", Takashima et al, Arch Dermatol Vol. 103, May 1971. They took young monkeys, and exchanged graphs from the normally balding front with ones from the normally non-balding occipital area. Then they started giving the animals testosterone injections. Yes, what happened is exactly what all of us (with the exception of Stephen Foote) would expect to happen: the follicles transplanted onto the frontal scalp (which came from the rear) continued to grow hair just fine; but the follicles transplanted onto the rear scalp (which came from the frontal area, which normally starts to go bald after puberty) started to thin and go bald!! :woot:

So the experiment with the monkeys meets the same stipulations Stephen demanded for him to believe the Standard Theory of balding! Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)
 

decro435

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Good Post Bryan.

Is Stephen Foote on these forums?
 

cuebald

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haha, I seem to remember Ernie Primeau saying that everyone needs to shave their bodies in order to stop balding?
What was that all about?
 

S Foote.

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This seems to ring a bell about one of our old debates Bryan?

Have you got a link to this study, or can you post the relevant text?

S Foote.
 

Bryan

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Boondock said:
Good stuff Bryan. Another win for good research.

Thanks for that, although I'm surprised that nobody pointed out that I used the wrong word: they didn't exchange "graphs", they exchanged GRAFTS. I was tired and sleepy when I wrote that post in the wee hours of this morning! :)
 

Bryan

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cuebald said:
haha, I seem to remember Ernie Primeau saying that everyone needs to shave their bodies in order to stop balding?
What was that all about?

Oh no, you couldn't just SHAVE your body, you had to actually PLUCK each individual hair, to eventually destroy the follicle itself. That way, they couldn't "steal the nutrients" from your scalp! :)
 

Bryan

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S Foote. said:
This seems to ring a bell about one of our old debates Bryan?

I think I know what you're referring to, Stephen, but this is the FIRST time that I have ever cited this specific study in our debates. You're thinking of something completely different.

S Foote. said:
Have you got a link to this study, or can you post the relevant text?

This study isn't available online. I thought for a moment about typing-out and posting the relevant text, but it's not as short and concise as (say) the Nordstrom study. I'd be here all day working on that job! :shock:

If you don't have access to a medical library and you can PM me your mailing address, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the full study. And yes, I know that you're over there in Jolly Old England! :) This is important enough that I don't want you to be able to say that I quoted anything in the study incompletely, or out of context.
 

Bryan

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S Foote. said:
OK Bryan, i'll pm you with a postal address.

I'll get it in the mail to you!
 

optimus prime

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Bryan said:
Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)

There is nothing to be ashamed of if he is wrong. Science is made up of many theories and beliefs and scientists continuously contradict and prove each other wrong.

Nobody likes a smart ***.
 

elvis123

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optimus prime said:
Bryan said:
Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)

There is nothing to be ashamed of if he is wrong. Science is made up of many theories and beliefs and scientists continuously contradict and prove each other wrong.

Nobody likes a smart ***.


Will Bryan be man enough to admit that he is a mega tool/douche?
 

ali777

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elvis123 said:
optimus prime said:
Bryan said:
Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)

There is nothing to be ashamed of if he is wrong. Science is made up of many theories and beliefs and scientists continuously contradict and prove each other wrong.

Nobody likes a smart ***.


Will Bryan be man enough to admit that he is a mega tool/douche?

Please don't insult Bryan!!!

There is nothing wrong with being passionate about certain subjects, we all like a good debate now and then. Scoring "one" during a debate can sometimes be as good as having sex :dunno: .

Keep up the good work Bryan, we need your posts! I have learnt lots of things from your messages. :bravo:
 

Bryan

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optimus prime said:
Bryan said:
Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)

There is nothing to be ashamed of if he is wrong. Science is made up of many theories and beliefs and scientists continuously contradict and prove each other wrong.

Nobody likes a smart ***.

Have you read the debates between me and Stephen Foote?
 

Cassin

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elvis123 said:
Will Bryan be man enough to admit that he is a mega tool/douche?

cool down...Bryan and Stephen have a very long history of back and forth debates. They love heated debates but have never sunk low...

No need to get childish with name calling...

Stephen Foote and Bryan are invaluable to these hair loss forums.
 

Cassin

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cuebald said:
haha, I seem to remember Ernie Primeau saying that everyone needs to shave their bodies in order to stop balding?
What was that all about?

No man..oh its much worse...hahahaha...you have to take tweezer and pluck the damn hairs out. Like every one of your hairs...if I remember right you even had to thin out the eye brows a bit.
 

optimus prime

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Bryan said:
optimus prime said:
Bryan said:
Will he be man enough to admit that his own theory of balding is wrong? :)

There is nothing to be ashamed of if he is wrong. Science is made up of many theories and beliefs and scientists continuously contradict and prove each other wrong.

Nobody likes a smart ***.

Have you read the debates between me and Stephen Foote?

Just one previous.
 

Bryan

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Then to whom were you referring when you said "nobody likes a smart ***", and why?
 
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