Androgenetic Alopecia Pathway Update and Possible Cure

[Fbalding84]

Not all my links are about the hair follicle. If you want more proof, do your own search. Better yet, start talking to potential medical researchers about this and see if they can verify it. I would like to see a future study regarding this idea. I believe if I can do a simple online search, reading articles, and finding information as what I wrote above, there can be a way to cure Androgenetic Alopecia. The sad truth is that there is no money involved in a cure; especially if it is as simple as what I posted above. The money is in hair transplants, synthetic medicines, topicals, and injections. If we were to fund our own research or if the medical community obliges to sincerely help, we can find a cure.

the cure is there and I believe it is in finding the right balance between known technologies and even more important known medicines/ chemicals.

And I Agee, there is no money in a cure; Like I have stated in my other posts. We have to find the cure. Or someone that is emotionally driven and not for financial incentives.

Let's develop a group come up with some hypothesis,develop several topicals and test them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cure exists and is being shelved till they can turn the cure into a treatment (long term residual income)

 

[beholder]

the cure is there and I believe it is in finding the right balance between known technologies and even more important known medicines/ chemicals.

And I Agee, there is no money in a cure; Like I have stated in my other posts. We have to find the cure. Or someone that is emotionally driven and not for financial incentives.

Let's develop a group come up with some hypothesis,develop several topicals and test them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cure exists and is being shelved till they can turn the cure into a treatment (long term residual income)

Absolutely this. I agree, if we could get organized in some way, then we perhaps would find something out.

I was thinking even before this thread came up (thanks AnteUp) about tattooing my temples without any paint. These guys are professionals and they have the technique rounded up so I believe it is just about finding out what depth they go to, specify the wounding pattern, pay for it and get done with it. [Python: they even have anti-pain creams.] Cotsarelis patent suggests certain range. These tips sum up what the tattooers do with the needle, pretty much what we need: http://www.tattoomachineequipment.com/proper-tattoo-needle-depth

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does anyone know what chemical did the Cotsarelis use when they made the wounding breakthrough?

 

[hellouser]

does anyone know what chemical did the Cotsarelis use when they made the wounding breakthrough?

I believe it was FGF-9... not exactly a chemical.

 

[Fbalding84]

Beholder- seems like you can read my mind!! I was thinking the same thing. Tattooing depth is important and perhaps we use some growth formula like A-cell

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I think it's not just about wounding any skin. I believe that the wounding needs to be inside the hair shaft entry hitting the DP. Where The SC are located and regenerative process can be initiated through wounding. The important unit of the hair is its DP it regulated everything and it produces the hair. In my opinion look at it this way- imagine your fingers gets cut in two halfs- you won't grow a new finger but if you hold both ends to each other and stitch it so it stays in place - the finger tip is attached again through a regenerative process. Wounding around the DP might release certain cells/chemicals/etc need to grow but I think we need to be closer to the real origin of hair.

 

[beholder]

Wounding around the DP might release certain cells/chemicals/etc need to grow but I think we need to be closer to the real origin of hair.

I disagree on this one, man. I believe that wounding anywhere near follicles (or some follicle progenitor stem cells) stimulates them to grow and regenerate. The messengers in the wounding process are the hormones/prostaglandins/proteins we need to grow hair. That's why we need the wounding pattern to be regular and dense enough. Hence - tattooing.

 

[Fbalding84]

We can try it and find out

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I have always wondered about FUE exchange of thinning follicles. You take a thinning follical from the vertex and one from the front and implant back but have them trade places. What would happen? Since it would be wounding to the max.....

 

[Fbalding84]

And what about the guys that get micro pigmentation are they frowning hair back ???

 

[hellouser]

And what about the guys that get micro pigmentation are they frowning hair back ???

Over time it looks ridiculous. The colours fade. Going this route though basically gives the industry the impression that hair loss sufferers are content with this sh!tty solution. It ain't good enough. It's either real hair or nothing.

 

[Fbalding84]

Over time it looks ridiculous. The colours fade. Going this route though basically gives the industry the impression that hair loss sufferers are content with this sh!tty solution. It ain't good enough. It's either real hair or nothing.

Beholder was referring wounding through tattooing without any ink. That's why I asked the questions

 

[beholder]

I believe that even with micropigmentation (=freckles which can happen for some people at any time the skin is damaged by sun/chemicals/mechanical damage) the area would look better if it had at least some hair. Pigmentation can be resolved with azelaic acid btw, which incidentally should also support more hair growth.

I have a HUGE freckle on top-right side of my nose, about 0.5cm width, from deep mechanical damage at my late twenties. No one notices it ever. People are mostly conditioned to ignore freckles. Thinking about getting azelaic acid for it though anyways.

EDIT: not sure if we're talking about the same thing, Fbalding84. The Cotsarelis said that the wounding process must be accompanied by a chemical/proteing for it to work to grow hair. So even if these "micropigmentation" guys did it, they didn't get the other side of the equation right.

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Low dose ROS (oxidant like hydrogen peroxide)-- induce Lgr5/CD200/CD200hiTGA6hi

AnteUp, be careful about hydrogen peroxide. It causes greying of hair in body. I am thinking about getting catalase and topical resveratrol to combat this ROS. I already have several hairs in my beard gray, no graying on head yet. So I am going to try this sh1t on the beard first just to be prepared for it when mother nature kicks in with greying hair.

 

[AnteUp]

I believe that even with micropigmentation (=freckles which can happen for some people at any time the skin is damaged by sun/chemicals/mechanical damage) the area would look better if it had at least some hair. Pigmentation can be resolved with azelaic acid btw, which incidentally should also support more hair growth.

I have a HUGE freckle on top-right side of my nose, about 0.5cm width, from deep mechanical damage at my late twenties. No one notices it ever. People are mostly conditioned to ignore freckles. Thinking about getting azelaic acid for it though anyways.

EDIT: not sure if we're talking about the same thing, Fbalding84. The Cotsarelis said that the wounding process must be accompanied by a chemical/proteing for it to work to grow hair. So even if these "micropigmentation" guys did it, they didn't get the other side of the equation right.

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AnteUp, be careful about hydrogen peroxide. It causes greying of hair in body. I am thinking about getting catalase and topical resveratrol to combat this ROS. I already have several hairs in my beard gray, no graying on head yet. So I am going to try this sh1t on the beard first just to be prepared for it when mother nature kicks in with greying hair.

I do not recommend using Azelaic Acid anymore. I will explain why. It has just come to my attention that Azelaic Acid does 2 things that will hinder and harm hair growth.

First it decreases mitochondrial ATP synthesis. This is terrible for those of us that are trying to regrow hair. However, this is the reason why it works for over proliferation like in psoriasis and conditions like rosacea.

Second, take note if you are wounding, that it decreases p53 and p21. These two are anti senescence, however in order to prevent fibrosis we need to eventually inhibit myofibroblasts via p53 and p16. So, using azelaic acid daily after wounding may actually CAUSE fibrosis.

http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v2/n9/full/100201.html

I have dropped using it. It may be a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, in vitro studies, but its cons outweigh the pro for hair. Hope this helps and if anyone has anything to add about azelaic acid, good or bad, please share.

About hydrogen peroxide, I am not using it, it was just an example of one type of ROS. Currently I am looking into and researching low dose benzoyl peroxide.

 

[Fbalding84]

Benzoyl peroxide as I have suggested on another forum- can be used unclog the sebum gland and kill some bacteria. It's like proactive for acne. But caused by SG DHT

 

[beholder]

sorry, man, reportedly, benzoyl peroxide like other peroxide solutions tends to bleach hair.

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This bleaching effect however could be prevented by the stuff they sell in my country against greying hairs, Reparex. I didn't know about it until 2 days ago, apparently crazy scientists in my country found the cure to greying. They've been doing it also before with some kind of lead-based solution, now it's silver-based (lead is forbidden by EU).
Here is a vid about it, its not in English but is pretty self-explanatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETxNYrrosbA

Perhaps we're onto someting. If the bleaching gives O (oxygen) to melanin and catalase is needed to remove it so that melanin actively colors the hair, then we just need to apply the catalase-like compound (=Reparex) with the ROS compound to prevent its bleaching effect. This theory needs to be tried by someone with short gray hair. Even if this doesn't work out, he will not suffer from bleaching effect for too long. If it however works out, not only his natural hair color will get restored, he might also get a kick to hairgrowth, as AnteUp indicated.

 

[beholder]

AnteUp,

I was slowly going through all of the research on various hair-loss boards for the last 10 years doing searches and reading more and more threads. While all the time thinking about your 4-5 points you presented in this thread earlier. I focused my search especially on non-prescription remedies which would be readily available. I was not looking for some obscure GH-3445721 chemical available for $831 per 1g, no way. I want something that is obtainable and ALREADY SOLD pretty much everywhere -- while proven safe of course, which would be nice too.

That way I found following: about 2 years ago the guys from HLH got into ciclopirox olamine, a cheap and available chemical which should be able to upregulate HIF-1 which in turn should be driving VEGF expression and thus having stimulatory effects on hair follicle cells. This sounds very reasonable and I am yet to see if any of their efforts got into real fruition (still have to finish reading a whole bunch of the threads).

How about that? Weak ciclopirox solution could even be that "ink" which could be "tattooed" into the skin in the wounding experiment I was discussing above. What do you think about this chemical?

I was also thinking about another thing: ascorbic acid seems [according to at least 4 studies] to help with hairloss by blocking androgens and DKK-1, upregulating IGF-1. This particular TOPICAL study on HUMANS seems to be most important in this regard (full study):
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-5945/4/13

Vitamin C has the potential to enhance the density of dermal papillae, perhaps through the mechanism of angiogenesis. Topical vitamin C may have therapeutical effects for partial corrections of the regressive structural changes associated with the aging process.

Another study had ascorbic acid combined with MSM with pretty good results (full study):
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/247915887

These two above could prove VITAL addition to the standard regimen of minoxidil and perhaps anti-androgen therapy. What do you think?

 

[frenchy]

I do not recommend using Azelaic Acid anymore. I will explain why. It has just come to my attention that Azelaic Acid does 2 things that will hinder and harm hair growth.

First it decreases mitochondrial ATP synthesis. This is terrible for those of us that are trying to regrow hair. However, this is the reason why it works for over proliferation like in psoriasis and conditions like rosacea.

Second, take note if you are wounding, that it decreases p53 and p21. These two are anti senescence, however in order to prevent fibrosis we need to eventually inhibit myofibroblasts via p53 and p16. So, using azelaic acid daily after wounding may actually CAUSE fibrosis.

http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v2/n9/full/100201.html

I have dropped using it. It may be a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor, in vitro studies, but its cons outweigh the pro for hair. Hope this helps and if anyone has anything to add about azelaic acid, good or bad, please share.

About hydrogen peroxide, I am not using it, it was just an example of one type of ROS. Currently I am looking into and researching low dose benzoyl peroxide.

but still a valuable option if you don't use wounding (?)

 

[inbrugge]

This thread is like the holy grail of male pattern baldness, guys. I wish I could contribute to the discussion as well, but I am so behind on the medical readings compared to you guys. It'll probably take me a few more months to even begin to catch up.

Please don't let this thread die.

I think AnteUp, Beholder, and the rest of us need to do a couple of things. There is an amazing amount of relevant information here. However, we need to format it and make it practical.

1. Let's clearly define the various pathways that are the MOST Critical.

There are just so many, that going through the thread now for probably a third time (without taking notes) I'm finally starting to digest the info a little bit.

JAK, WNT, CD34+, PGD2/PGE2, IL-6, p53/p21/p16, NO, DKK-1, IGF-1, HIF-1, VEGF, DHT, and the list goes on.

I am planning to go back, take notes, and update this list with kind of a flow chart connecting each related factor. And hopefully you guys can correct and contribute.

2. Let's clearly define POSSIBLE TREATMENTS to up regulate desirable factors or down regulate undesirable factors.

Beholder has already done this in a way in his other thread for PGD2/PGE2, which is amazing. However, this thread takes a much bigger stab at the complete picture including many more pathways than just PGD2/PGE2. So if we can replicate what Beholder did for other pathways as well that gives us things to try for each factor. Which takes us into the next step.

3. Let's clearly define a practical treatment plan. This can be our new REGIMEN. Combining as many beneficial treatments as possible into as little applications as possible.

Once we define such a treatment plan, I'm sure we can find at least 5 people on here who'd willingly try it out. If we can get 5-10 people who strictly adhere to the new regimen and share their experiences, I think that would be a pretty impressive feat.

I, myself, have already tried to incorporate a little bit of both Beholders and AnteUp's findings into my regimen. (Taking out Azelaic Acid. Trying to introduce Lithium. Using Topical Vitamin E & C).

But as of now the discussion is too scattered to incorporate it all. However, if we tidy it up, I think we are touching on so many angles of the issue that if we made it into something practical, it sounds like it'd be pretty hard to not see results with so much science behind it.

Here is a first go at a possible regime. Haha, As I said I didn't take notes so I'm just going off the top right now. I will go back and update it once I've accomplished step one.

Possible Regimen (Will be updated):

Minoxidil
Ketocozonale
Neogenic (Hypoxia)
Ru58841
Tretinoin
Vitamin C
Vitamin E
Topical v**** (?? yeah, sounds hilarious)
Bimatoprost
Brevilin A - Litsea Glutinosa (JAK)
Tofacitinib
Wounding - 1.5x Months

 

[RK85]

Interesting:

A wonder cream could bring relief to millions of patients with eczema, arthritis and a form of alopecia.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/wonder-drug-cures-eczema-arthritis-5978151

 

[Giiizmo]

Interesting:



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology-science/science/wonder-drug-cures-eczema-arthritis-5978151

Great for those who suffer from these afflictions but it has nothing to do with Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[SuicidalTraveler]

Bump.

 

[Bagels]

How do you measure out, mix and apply Lithium Chloride? It comes in a powder. Do people have chemistry grade scales at home and mix with DMSO or something?