American Health care reform protests

[HughJass]

LOL @ the neurosis

So, forum yanks, are yo' fo' a public option like the rest of us developed countries have or is it a case of 'better dead than red'? :shakehead:

 

[somone uk]

i have not come across any halfway educated argument against it, and frankly most the "deny healthcare to some" argument is completely untrue, and the arguments against healthcare reform completely disregard the flaws with their current system such as losing healthcare with your job, the atrocious quality of "free clinics" or problems of your insurance company denying your payment which would be worse than any problem under free healthcare

and btw america we spend about 7-8% of our GDP on healthcare America spends about 16.2% which means you pay TWICE as much on healthcare, (well actually more)
it would also guarantee security of your healthcare system, it's more lightly for a commercial healthcare company to crash than a government ran one

 

[Cassin]

LOL @ the neurosis

So, forum yanks, are yo' fo' a public option like the rest of us developed countries have or is it a case of 'better dead than red'? :shakehead:

oh aussie...so worldly aren't you?

Most people are for it..but the news loves to make the vocal minority seem like the true story.

 

[ali777]

I can see where the opposition comes from... If you don't pay for it, you don't get it...

However, the fact is, as a society we share the responsibility for certain services such as education, defense, roads, etc. I believe health should be one of those basic services that everyone gets access to.

What makes health different than education or defense? Can a rich society survive without soldiers, or universal education system?

and btw america we spend about 7-8% of our GDP on healthcare America spends about 16.2% which means you pay TWICE as much on healthcare, (well actually more)

I don't know how those numbers are calculated, but the British HNS spends something like 25-30% of the government budget, ie 120-150 billion £ per annum. Each of us pays £2000 towards the NHS in taxes, which isn't small amount of money. I presume £2000 or $3000 a year would get anyone a decent health plan even in the States.

Although, I do support the idea of universal health system, I do also think that the British NHS is badly run.

 

[Bryan]

However, the fact is, as a society we share the responsibility for certain services such as education, defense, roads, etc. I believe health should be one of those basic services that everyone gets access to.

What makes health different than education or defense? Can a rich society survive without soldiers, or universal education system?

I agree with you on all of that.

I think a large part of the reaction against universal healthcare by the average American comes from the constant hammering by nationally syndicated right-wing pundits on AM talk radio: people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, etc. Then when you listen to local commentators, you get more of the same; especially, here in reactionary areas like Texas. When a typically provincial American hears that same repeated message over and over and over and over (like how it's "commie" to have your government try to take care of your healthcare for you), he begins to believe it.

I have the following question for all of you in other developed areas of the world, outside of America: do you have programs on your own local radio and television where right-wing pundits talk incessantly about the evils of socialism? Or is that something not widely discussed? I'd like to hear a serious discussion of how it is in Australia, Europe, Asia, and other places.

 

[oni]

As long the US does not let the system get as bad as the UK's it should be ok...............................................

The amount of fraud, theft and wastage in NHS is really bad!

 

[Cassin]

As long the US does not let the system get as bad as the UK's it should be ok...............................................

The amount of fraud, theft and wastage in NHS is really bad!

Which is the biggest concern of me and many other people...lets slow down and do it right.

 

[HughJass]

I have the following question for all of you in other developed areas of the world, outside of America: do you have programs on your own local radio and television where right-wing pundits talk incessantly about the evils of socialism? Or is that something not widely discussed? I'd like to hear a serious discussion of how it is in Australia, Europe, Asia, and other places.

Yes, we have those hate mongerer types on the radio (and the shock jock newspaper equivalents) who exist solely to stoke people's prejudices/be controversial or contrarian for the sake of it.

Commiephobia isn't really the main thing they rail about though (I think very few of even the most right wing people in Australia would want to scrap our public health care system) The main topics are usually:

-how global warming is supposedly the biggest lie ever (they just love that one)
-law and order (courts are too soft etc)
-endless ranting about immigrants (the non-anglo ones)

The latter is the big one.

 

[Bryan]

Commiephobia isn't really the main thing they rail about though (I think very few of even the most right wing people in Australia would want to scrap our public health care system)

That's really good to hear. Thanks for sharing that!

The main topics are usually:

-how global warming is supposedly the biggest lie ever (they just love that one)
-law and order (courts are too soft etc)
-endless ranting about immigrants (the non-anglo ones)

I continue to be amazed by what strong opinions so many lay people have about global warming. To me, it seems so obvious that it's a profoundly technical issue requiring the processing of vast amounts of measured data, along with some really sophisticated computer modeling. How could just an average person like a cab driver, or a grocery store worker, or a plumber say with a straight face that it's "the biggest lie ever"?! Isn't that a little like arguing with a cancer specialist what the best way to treat a brain tumor is? :shock:

Personally, I don't even have an opinion on global warming at all. I'll simply go along with whatever the consensus of scientific opinion happens to be.

 

[HughJass]

I continue to be amazed by what strong opinions so many lay people have about global warming. To me, it seems so obvious that it's a profoundly technical issue requiring the processing of vast amounts of measured data, along with some really sophisticated computer modeling. How could just an average person like a cab driver, or a grocery store worker, or a plumber say with a straight face that it's "the biggest lie ever"?! Isn't that a little like arguing with a cancer specialist what the best way to treat a brain tumor is? :shock:

Seeing as most of the global warming skeptics seem to be on the right wing I think it's safe to assume that one of the main reasons for their refusal to accept global warming is a real threat is because it would mean having to admit that their political enemies (the environmentalists/greenies on the left specifically) have been right (correct) for the last x amount of decades.

 

[ali777]

I have the following question for all of you in other developed areas of the world, outside of America: do you have programs on your own local radio and television where right-wing pundits talk incessantly about the evils of socialism? Or is that something not widely discussed? I'd like to hear a serious discussion of how it is in Australia, Europe, Asia, and other places.

IMO, the problem isn't with the radio or TV but with the print media. Certain newspapers consistently pick on a few isolated stories about immigrants and use them to create xenophobia.

Europe doesn't really have commiephobia, those days are gone. If anything, as the others stated, even the most extreme right wing supporters actually want the universal health and education system to be extended and improved.

The British newspapers keep going on about the number of foreign patients that get treated by the NHS, but they never mention how many doctors are foreigners. Educating a medical doctor costs the tax payer about £250k, the NHS saves billions by employing foreigners but no one mentions those facts...

Basically, European right wing isn't about capitalism but about protecting our culture and resources from the foreigners. In reality, what those right wing people conveniently ignore to tell you is the amount of resources we leach from the developing world.

I do believe, since 911, Europe has gone backwards. The timing of the credit crunch was rather unfortunate as well. The whole terrorism episode combined with (relatively) high unemployment rate has created resentment towards the immigrants. It just makes it easier for those newspapers to fuel hatred at the moment.

 

[somone uk]

and btw america we spend about 7-8% of our GDP on healthcare America spends about 16.2% which means you pay TWICE as much on healthcare, (well actually more)

I don't know how those numbers are calculated, but the British HNS spends something like 25-30% of the government budget, ie 120-150 billion £ per annum. Each of us pays £2000 towards the NHS in taxes, which isn't small amount of money. I presume £2000 or $3000 a year would get anyone a decent health plan even in the States.

Although, I do support the idea of universal health system, I do also think that the British NHS is badly run.

Actually the NHS is more efficient in that you don't have a private insurance company to pay for their staff and make profit (shareholders there)
and then a profitable business providing the healthcare (more shareholders)
but no one owns shares in the NHS, therefore the NHS is a considerably cheaper and more cost effective means of treatment
i have just been quoted £480 (bare in mind that even private health use NHS doctors, hospitals and ambulances over here) for 1 year, but i don't fall into the category of someone who really gets ill alot, i am 20 years old and i don't smoke and live in an area where there no health risks
on the other hand i pretended to be a smoker born in 1921 that lives in chapeltown (an area of leeds that has riots all the time, the gloomiest of gloom) and i was quoted £3200
but i would hate to have a premium going up every time i got ill, and it will not do any favours that areas stricken with poverty would get charged more than areas that are nice and clean

 

[oni]

technically the NHS is more efficient

"Technically" is such a nice word.....................................but does not sit well with "actually". :whistle:

 

[HughJass]

IMO, the problem isn't with the radio or TV but with the print media.

What slander!

 

[Slartibartfast]

IMO, the problem isn't with the radio or TV but with the print media. Certain newspapers consistently pick on a few isolated stories about immigrants and use them to create xenophobia.

The public doesn't regularly cite immigration as their main (Government-influenced) concern because of "a few isolated stories about immigrants", the majority has been against large-scale, transformational immigration since it began in the late fifties but its views have been repeatedly ignored - both by Govt. and its left-leaning propaganda division, the BBC.

Oddly the indigenous British don't seem thrilled about having their land become inexorably multi-cultural. The fact that 24% of babies born in 2008 were to mothers who themselves were born overseas (55% in London), doesn't make me think "ooh, how wonderfully open we are as a country". It makes me think "ooh, not long until non-indigenous births out-strip indigenous ones". Then the English will be well on their way to becoming just another minority in their own land.

The British newspapers keep going on about the number of foreign patients that get treated by the NHS, but they never mention how many doctors are foreigners. Educating a medical doctor costs the tax payer about £250k, the NHS saves billions by employing foreigners but no one mentions those facts...

Are you fukcing kidding me? Try finding a debate/interview on the BBC about immigration where someone from the Left doesn't mention it. Personally I despise the idea of developed nations luring such professionals from countries with far thinner medical coverage than they themselves have, and besides, aren't we now training too many doctors for our own purposes?

Basically, European right wing isn't about capitalism but about protecting our culture and resources from the foreigners. In reality, what those right wing people conveniently ignore to tell you is the amount of resources we leach from the developing world.

What do you mean by 'resources'? People? Is this the point where you tell me that the majority of new arrivals are highly skilled AND needed to fill skill-based gaps in the UK economy?

 

[HughJass]

Oddly the indigenous British don't seem thrilled about having their land become inexorably multi-cultural. The fact that 24% of babies born in 2008 were to mothers who themselves were born overseas (55% in London), doesn't make me think "ooh, how wonderfully open we are as a country". It makes me think "ooh, not long until non-indigenous births out-strip indigenous ones". Then the English will be well on their way to becoming just another minority in their own land.

I can see why those things would matter to the average 'Britain for British' knuckledragger, you don't *seem* like a dumb person so I wonder if they matter to you? I get the impression they might...

I might be mistaken but there is nothing inherently superior about British citizens who happened to be born in Britain, over citizens who aren't, in terms of what they contribute and how they treat other people.

Scabby welfare mums and chav retards aren't found exclusively amongst the immigrant population. If I seem some data which says otherwise.......

 

[Slartibartfast]

I continue to be amazed by what strong opinions so many lay people have about global warming. To me, it seems so obvious that it's a profoundly technical issue requiring the processing of vast amounts of measured data, along with some really sophisticated computer modeling.

Measured data isn't all in agreement and sophisticated doesn't guarantee accurate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... -home.html

 

[Slartibartfast]

Oddly the indigenous British don't seem thrilled about having their land become inexorably multi-cultural. The fact that 24% of babies born in 2008 were to mothers who themselves were born overseas (55% in London), doesn't make me think "ooh, how wonderfully open we are as a country". It makes me think "ooh, not long until non-indigenous births out-strip indigenous ones". Then the English will be well on their way to becoming just another minority in their own land.

I can see why those things would matter to the average 'Britain for British' knuckledragger, you don't *seem* like a dumb person so I wonder if they matter to you? I get the impression they might...

I might be mistaken but there is nothing inherently superior about British citizens who happened to be born in Britain, over citizens who aren't...

It has nothing to do with an assumed superiority, and I'm not after an 'all white' Britain in case you were wondering, but neither do I cherish the idea of Britain being balkanized by a doomed experiment in multi-culturalism. The figures point to ever stronger divisions along ethnic lines - if I remember the story correctly, those of Caribbean descent were the only group not becoming more segregated from the white populace.

My aversion to the English becoming a minority in England remains. If that bothers/baffles/angers you then fair enough; it's not something I can explain in terms of pure logic. Or be bothered to do so in any other way.

 

[HughJass]

It has nothing to do with an assumed superiority, and I'm not after an 'all white' Britain in case you were wondering, but neither do I cherish the idea of Britain being balkanized by a doomed experiment in multi-culturalism. The figures point to ever stronger divisions along ethnic lines - if I remember the story correctly, those of Caribbean descent were the only group not becoming more segregated from the white populace.

OK, but how do you know that Britain would have less social ills if more of it's citizens were born inside Britain rather than outside it? Is there data we could look at to determine that?

And even *if* foreign people coming into Britain bring social problems with them is it fair to make a generalization about all of them? If a couple of Somali's go nuts and stab someone is it rational to ban all immigration from Africa on that basis alone?

No more so than saying all white people are a threat because of low rent white trash stabby chav youth...

Not sure of the particulars of immigration in Britian but it sounds like the government might be entitled to cop a lot of the blame for the problem of segration- if they are clumping immigrants together in the same cheap housing complexes and creating communities made up entirely of immigrants then things always go tits up.

 

[Slartibartfast]

If you or anyone else can point to where I blamed immigrants for the UK's social ills I will award a life-changing prize. The Left and their wonderfully 'progressive' policies on crime, education, social welfare, etc. are to blame. Though I can't see that importing any more unskilled workers into a country stuffed with unskilled workers is a sensible strategy - unless you're a political party after their votes or on a crusade to keep down the appallingly low wages paid at the bottom end of our labour market.

On your final point, I don't know that it's fair to blame the Govt. for the distribution of new arrivals - and God knows I enjoy blaming Labour wherever possible. I think it's more a combination of human nature (being drawn to the familiar) and the availability of work (though not at the moment) & cheap accommodation rather than Governmental short-sightedness. Besides, Govt. has such a limited supply of unfilled housing that it's influence can't be that dramatic.