Alibi for first few days...
- Thread starter Oli
- Start date
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Oh how wrong Gillenator, who works in the transplant biz, is.
http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/drphil.jpg , IS that guy a good candidate for an hair transplant?
f*** NO. Thats the problem with hair transplant's. Baldness is progressive, DUH. Just because you get plugs doesnt mean that you stop balding. In 10 years, those hair transplant plugs will have bare skin behind them.
I used to go to hairclub a few years ago, before I thorougly researched baldness, for their EXT program. Im a Norwood three. The stylists there that perform the EXT also do the wig-work (the mainstay of hairclub as EXT is a joke). They tell me that MANY of the guy's in wigs have transplants.......but kept going bald despite the propecia.
The guys know they are running out of donor hair, and that the hair in the back of their heads is unnatrually thin. They pretty much are stuck with wearin' a wig because of it. If you EVER go bald on top and the back....the hippocratic wreath simply DOES NOT contain enough hair to cover it. Its just a "connected" comb over even if you try it.
Ive also, Gillenator, NEVER HEARD of anybody actually going to a clinic asking for a "free" surgery. They'd have to be stupid to do that.
When you see a bosley infomercial, keep in mind the lighting is turned down on the guys heads in the after-segment, they are undoubtably paid and sprayed with Toppik or Couvre, the tint is also turned down. How many hair transplant's have you seen IN PERSON. Ive seen many, and can spot em' a mile away. As soon as a guy turns around, if he's had more than about 1000 units taken out, his hair in the back of his head doesnt "hang" right and appears unnaturally thin. You give birth to something when you transplant. Never forget that. It makes you HAVE to have success with your treatments. A gun is to your head if you dont.
Remember, Bosley, who've done more transplants than anyone, had his medical liscence revoked in 20 states. They were caught using guys with no transplants in their "after-photos", Im pretty sure they use phony before photos (you dont see their face, how can you be sure its him?). THey also dont tell you the guy who was bald and seems to have frontal hair now might be wearing a toupee in the back of his head to cover a BIG bald spot. He's sprayed with concealer also. The reason that business is so dishonest is that it has to be to get marks in. Its the only way this many docs can get rich too.
If cloning doesnt happen for technical reasons......a bunch of guys who got plugs will be in wigs in the next twenty years, or be pitifully obvious with big back bald spots behind spotty, thinnish hairlines. A 30,000 hair hippocratic wreath does NOT Have enough hair to cover your entire head. I hope, Aplunk, that Im keeping you from committing a GRAVE error 15 years down the road.
http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/drphil.jpg , IS that guy a good candidate for an hair transplant?
f*** NO. Thats the problem with hair transplant's. Baldness is progressive, DUH. Just because you get plugs doesnt mean that you stop balding. In 10 years, those hair transplant plugs will have bare skin behind them.
I used to go to hairclub a few years ago, before I thorougly researched baldness, for their EXT program. Im a Norwood three. The stylists there that perform the EXT also do the wig-work (the mainstay of hairclub as EXT is a joke). They tell me that MANY of the guy's in wigs have transplants.......but kept going bald despite the propecia.
The guys know they are running out of donor hair, and that the hair in the back of their heads is unnatrually thin. They pretty much are stuck with wearin' a wig because of it. If you EVER go bald on top and the back....the hippocratic wreath simply DOES NOT contain enough hair to cover it. Its just a "connected" comb over even if you try it.
Ive also, Gillenator, NEVER HEARD of anybody actually going to a clinic asking for a "free" surgery. They'd have to be stupid to do that.
When you see a bosley infomercial, keep in mind the lighting is turned down on the guys heads in the after-segment, they are undoubtably paid and sprayed with Toppik or Couvre, the tint is also turned down. How many hair transplant's have you seen IN PERSON. Ive seen many, and can spot em' a mile away. As soon as a guy turns around, if he's had more than about 1000 units taken out, his hair in the back of his head doesnt "hang" right and appears unnaturally thin. You give birth to something when you transplant. Never forget that. It makes you HAVE to have success with your treatments. A gun is to your head if you dont.
Remember, Bosley, who've done more transplants than anyone, had his medical liscence revoked in 20 states. They were caught using guys with no transplants in their "after-photos", Im pretty sure they use phony before photos (you dont see their face, how can you be sure its him?). THey also dont tell you the guy who was bald and seems to have frontal hair now might be wearing a toupee in the back of his head to cover a BIG bald spot. He's sprayed with concealer also. The reason that business is so dishonest is that it has to be to get marks in. Its the only way this many docs can get rich too.
If cloning doesnt happen for technical reasons......a bunch of guys who got plugs will be in wigs in the next twenty years, or be pitifully obvious with big back bald spots behind spotty, thinnish hairlines. A 30,000 hair hippocratic wreath does NOT Have enough hair to cover your entire head. I hope, Aplunk, that Im keeping you from committing a GRAVE error 15 years down the road.
Aplunk1
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 9
I know that Bosley is unethical.
But what about people who were completely bald, or at least stabilized at a NW5 or so, and got hair transplants, like Andy Hunt (http://www.headofhair.co.uk) or Joe (http://www.hairtransplantmentor.com)?
But what about people who were completely bald, or at least stabilized at a NW5 or so, and got hair transplants, like Andy Hunt (http://www.headofhair.co.uk) or Joe (http://www.hairtransplantmentor.com)?
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Aplunk,
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... pic_page=1
That thread has pics of the most thorough repair job Ive ever seen. Ive posted another humor pic on this site also that really illustrates the long-term folly of simple transplantation here http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/102824.jpg
I looked at your bio and youre a young guy. You have pretty good hair. You may fight to keep it with internal and topical anti-androgens and SOD's and keep it for hell,,,,,,20 more years. A much better alternative than zip scars and scar holes all over your head will surely be availble by then.
But if you do opt for plugs (and all transplants, even good ones are plugs, just very small plugs), remember man, the zip scars will keep you from ever buzzing your head unless you opt for the extremely expensive FUE procedure from a Doctor like Cole, Jones, or Woods. There will be small white scars at recipient sites. But like Ive said before, if youre one of the people whose genetics take a turn for the worse and even treatments arent working for you, you can wind up losing not only the top, but the sides can receed downwards, the hair in the back can receed upwards (look at the second pic), the back baldspot can get really huge leaving just a 2-3 inch thinnish hippocratic wreath.
This was all hit home for me at a wedding a few years back. I was seated behind a gentleman in his early 60's, strong build, in good health. Healthy older guy with a buzz. Man, he had a small, THIN, hippocratic wreath.......if you quadrupled the hair in it, he might have enough hair for thin coverage. Wreaths do indeed thin. Some of the hair thats moved will fall out. I know tranplant infomercials can make it look like great stuff, and it can be if youre an older guy (40's) who has lost hair VERY SLOWLY with no help from any treatments and are practically sure youre not going to wind up horseshoeing. But there is a big mental strain in transplainting either when youre young or have been relying on treatments not to. THEY HAVE to work then. If they dont, youve got a disaster. Better to keep it short and treat it and wait. Geneticists and cloners are gonna solve this for us someday.
http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... pic_page=1
That thread has pics of the most thorough repair job Ive ever seen. Ive posted another humor pic on this site also that really illustrates the long-term folly of simple transplantation here http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/102824.jpg
I looked at your bio and youre a young guy. You have pretty good hair. You may fight to keep it with internal and topical anti-androgens and SOD's and keep it for hell,,,,,,20 more years. A much better alternative than zip scars and scar holes all over your head will surely be availble by then.
But if you do opt for plugs (and all transplants, even good ones are plugs, just very small plugs), remember man, the zip scars will keep you from ever buzzing your head unless you opt for the extremely expensive FUE procedure from a Doctor like Cole, Jones, or Woods. There will be small white scars at recipient sites. But like Ive said before, if youre one of the people whose genetics take a turn for the worse and even treatments arent working for you, you can wind up losing not only the top, but the sides can receed downwards, the hair in the back can receed upwards (look at the second pic), the back baldspot can get really huge leaving just a 2-3 inch thinnish hippocratic wreath.
This was all hit home for me at a wedding a few years back. I was seated behind a gentleman in his early 60's, strong build, in good health. Healthy older guy with a buzz. Man, he had a small, THIN, hippocratic wreath.......if you quadrupled the hair in it, he might have enough hair for thin coverage. Wreaths do indeed thin. Some of the hair thats moved will fall out. I know tranplant infomercials can make it look like great stuff, and it can be if youre an older guy (40's) who has lost hair VERY SLOWLY with no help from any treatments and are practically sure youre not going to wind up horseshoeing. But there is a big mental strain in transplainting either when youre young or have been relying on treatments not to. THEY HAVE to work then. If they dont, youve got a disaster. Better to keep it short and treat it and wait. Geneticists and cloners are gonna solve this for us someday.
Aplunk1
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 9
Michael, your opinion is much appreciated.
I have no clue how my progression will occur, and you definitely have a point there...
It seems that nobody in my family ever progressed beyond a NW5, but, nonetheless, male pattern baldness occurred quickly and over a short period of time.
I guess that treatments, you could say, are my ONLY logical option at this point.
Thanks.
I have no clue how my progression will occur, and you definitely have a point there...
It seems that nobody in my family ever progressed beyond a NW5, but, nonetheless, male pattern baldness occurred quickly and over a short period of time.
I guess that treatments, you could say, are my ONLY logical option at this point.
Thanks.
G
Guest
Guest
Aplunk1,
It's good to see that you decided to think things through and not rush into hair transplants but to rather give the meds a fair chance to stabilize and/or slow down the effects of male pattern baldness. I think we all recognize that male pattern baldness is a progressive disease and does not resolve itself nor is there any cure for it. I will say that in the past 26 years, finasteride has been the most efficient med for stabilizing genetic hairloss than any other med out there. And I don't base that on literature but rather what literally thousands of guys have told me since Propecia was approved by the FDA. I would estimate that there is approximately an 80% efficiency ratio across the board to those men who have used it as prescribed. It has stabilized my own genetic hairloss since I started ingesting it in 1996 and I still cut Proscar to this day. My hairloss was predominantly in the front in that horshoe pattern Michael referred to and that's where most of my grafts went and into the midscalp. So after being on finasteride and getting a total of 4417 grafts to date, I have been able to maintain a very restored look.
But again Michael makes a legitimate point in how long will the meds work? Because if they do lose their efficiency over the long haul, yes male pattern baldness will resume it's course and undoubdetdly we will all lose more hair. For myself it's a risk that I understand and ALSO accept. But that's me and not anyone else. Everybody has to decide that for themselves.
But allow me to assure you and anyone else reading this that there are virtually "thousands" of success cases in surgical hair restoration. One of the fundamental differences between my critics and myself is that "I have worked on the inside, they have not". I have physically seen well over 10,000 patients since I started following the industry. They claim that they can recognize anyone who had a transplant, that they are ALL detectable, even the good ones look fake, etc, etc. But listen to what these guys are saying. It's absurd. IF you can tell someone's had a hair transplant, THEN THAT'S NOT A GOOD hair transplant! AGREE? A good hair transplant result done by a competent artistically talented surgeon is in fact undetectable. I receive virtually dozens and dozens of pics every month with absolutely awesome results and these are happy patients. What these guys don't get is that in every day life they have had hair transplant patients standing right in front of them and they don't even know it.
It was not until the mid 90's that I began to see the consistent results of FUHT technology that Dr. Bill Rassman pioneered in the early nineties. Others like Dr. Bob Bernstein, Dr. Paul Rose, Dr. Ron Shapiro, etc have all and still continue to make refinements in that technology. I had three seperate FUHT procedures so if you want ot see my pics, e-mail me because I gladly send them to anyone that wants to see them. I have lots of close-ups of my hairline and other angles taken in "bright sunlight". Judge them for yourself.
And oh, before I forget, anyone is welcome to stop by my office by appointment to judge my hair transplants in person. And while you're at my office I will gladly also show you my financial statements and my tax returns in case any of you think I'm making all of this money in the hair transplant industry. Or just contact the five docs who sponsor my advocacy efforts and ask them what they pay me, a whopping $250 per month which barely covers the overhead in my world-wide advocacy support to patients. I never have and never will ever charge any partients for my support. I don't even pay myself a salary. I sure don't see my critics offering all of this free support on a full time basis! Well c'mon, come take a look at my tax returns if you think I'm full of BS! But the truth is that you won't because you know you have your agendas to try and discredit the industry. Anyone else is welcome to come to verify my financial standing in this industry, ANYTIME.
Listen, there are approximately 40 talented reputable hair transplant surgeons that perform ultra-refined FUHT procedures and some of them also offer FUE. But my point is that I see some great results from patients of these docs and if I can say one thing in common that they have is CONSISTENTCY in results over and over. Just surf some of the other forums and soon you will see the same talented reputable docs consistently recommended by patients over and over.
Be extremely leary of those individuals who propogate that all hair transplants suck and there is no such thing as a good one. They are either lying or are very ignorant. But be equally leary of the indvidual who propogates that there are no risks, that evryone gets great results because obviously that is not true either. The reality is that there are successes as well as failures in any form of cosmetic surgery. I've been around a long time, much longer than my critics and it's almost always these guys that don't do their research that get whacked. They end up going to the wrong doctor who takes advantage of them. Now they're mad and I mean REALLY MAD. I hear it from patients all of the time. But these guys seem to end up into one of two groups. They either openly admit to their own failure and learn from it and move on OR they become relentlessly angry and poison everything around them. They become very one-sided and now everything in the industry sucks. Anyone who has been in the forums for awhile knows exactly what I mean. Surely any of us can understand their hurt feelings but to go on the offensive and virtually target patients with their doom and gloom is selfish and self-serving. That's why I always jump in to give BOTH sides of the story.
Then there's the critic who really is a poor candidate for hair transplants and no doubt is either in an advanced Norwood class or is headed that way with family history confirming it. But these guys have done at least enough research to know that they are poor candidates for hair transplants so they make an agenda of slamming it. It's sort of the ole' "if I can't have it than no one else is going to" attitude and they either end up in hair systems or just keep shaving their head. Keep reading various forums long enough and you'll see the same patterns of behavior. Sound familiar Michael?
Do you guys remember the attacks on Damo? He too offered to share his pics with anyone yet he too was criticized. RESULTS DO NOT LIE whether they be good or bad. I think some individuals thrive on negativity and just can't stand to see someone else have success.
Then to imply that all hair transplants end up failing and quit growing is also absurd. Why do you think the guys that did have plugs are trying to get corrective surgery? It's because their plugs ARE still growing and do not have any more appeal because the natural hair that used to surround the plugs fell out from the progression of male pattern baldness! This is a completely different issue from scarring which of course would be anybody's concern as well. The truth of the matter is that re-growth of transplanted "terminal hair" has an extremely high rate of continued growth due to the genetic predisposition of terminal hair follicules. That is a matter of genetic science. Oh sure there are exceptions to some patients that have a terrible yield but that is almost ALWAYS attributable to incompetence of the doctor and/or medical staff. The reputable long standing docs do not have those problems.
Patients need to recognize that the possibilty of "shaving" or buzz cuttting down to a number one guide is generally not possible after hair transplants and something I always mention to patients UP FRONT. Michael is right in that the probability of a linear scar showing or the spots from FUE so that is always a trade off. Guess what? Do you really want to know how many guys pay thousands of their hard earned money in hair transplants just to shave it all off when it grows out? ZERO! Yes some buzz to a number two or three so the scar does not show through but NO ONE cuts it all off unless they got botched. I mean patients get hair transplants to grow them out not to cut all off, think about it.
Like I have always said, do adequate research, know your limitations and set realistic goals and you won't set yourself up for failure.
It's good to see that you decided to think things through and not rush into hair transplants but to rather give the meds a fair chance to stabilize and/or slow down the effects of male pattern baldness. I think we all recognize that male pattern baldness is a progressive disease and does not resolve itself nor is there any cure for it. I will say that in the past 26 years, finasteride has been the most efficient med for stabilizing genetic hairloss than any other med out there. And I don't base that on literature but rather what literally thousands of guys have told me since Propecia was approved by the FDA. I would estimate that there is approximately an 80% efficiency ratio across the board to those men who have used it as prescribed. It has stabilized my own genetic hairloss since I started ingesting it in 1996 and I still cut Proscar to this day. My hairloss was predominantly in the front in that horshoe pattern Michael referred to and that's where most of my grafts went and into the midscalp. So after being on finasteride and getting a total of 4417 grafts to date, I have been able to maintain a very restored look.
But again Michael makes a legitimate point in how long will the meds work? Because if they do lose their efficiency over the long haul, yes male pattern baldness will resume it's course and undoubdetdly we will all lose more hair. For myself it's a risk that I understand and ALSO accept. But that's me and not anyone else. Everybody has to decide that for themselves.
But allow me to assure you and anyone else reading this that there are virtually "thousands" of success cases in surgical hair restoration. One of the fundamental differences between my critics and myself is that "I have worked on the inside, they have not". I have physically seen well over 10,000 patients since I started following the industry. They claim that they can recognize anyone who had a transplant, that they are ALL detectable, even the good ones look fake, etc, etc. But listen to what these guys are saying. It's absurd. IF you can tell someone's had a hair transplant, THEN THAT'S NOT A GOOD hair transplant! AGREE? A good hair transplant result done by a competent artistically talented surgeon is in fact undetectable. I receive virtually dozens and dozens of pics every month with absolutely awesome results and these are happy patients. What these guys don't get is that in every day life they have had hair transplant patients standing right in front of them and they don't even know it.
It was not until the mid 90's that I began to see the consistent results of FUHT technology that Dr. Bill Rassman pioneered in the early nineties. Others like Dr. Bob Bernstein, Dr. Paul Rose, Dr. Ron Shapiro, etc have all and still continue to make refinements in that technology. I had three seperate FUHT procedures so if you want ot see my pics, e-mail me because I gladly send them to anyone that wants to see them. I have lots of close-ups of my hairline and other angles taken in "bright sunlight". Judge them for yourself.
And oh, before I forget, anyone is welcome to stop by my office by appointment to judge my hair transplants in person. And while you're at my office I will gladly also show you my financial statements and my tax returns in case any of you think I'm making all of this money in the hair transplant industry. Or just contact the five docs who sponsor my advocacy efforts and ask them what they pay me, a whopping $250 per month which barely covers the overhead in my world-wide advocacy support to patients. I never have and never will ever charge any partients for my support. I don't even pay myself a salary. I sure don't see my critics offering all of this free support on a full time basis! Well c'mon, come take a look at my tax returns if you think I'm full of BS! But the truth is that you won't because you know you have your agendas to try and discredit the industry. Anyone else is welcome to come to verify my financial standing in this industry, ANYTIME.
Listen, there are approximately 40 talented reputable hair transplant surgeons that perform ultra-refined FUHT procedures and some of them also offer FUE. But my point is that I see some great results from patients of these docs and if I can say one thing in common that they have is CONSISTENTCY in results over and over. Just surf some of the other forums and soon you will see the same talented reputable docs consistently recommended by patients over and over.
Be extremely leary of those individuals who propogate that all hair transplants suck and there is no such thing as a good one. They are either lying or are very ignorant. But be equally leary of the indvidual who propogates that there are no risks, that evryone gets great results because obviously that is not true either. The reality is that there are successes as well as failures in any form of cosmetic surgery. I've been around a long time, much longer than my critics and it's almost always these guys that don't do their research that get whacked. They end up going to the wrong doctor who takes advantage of them. Now they're mad and I mean REALLY MAD. I hear it from patients all of the time. But these guys seem to end up into one of two groups. They either openly admit to their own failure and learn from it and move on OR they become relentlessly angry and poison everything around them. They become very one-sided and now everything in the industry sucks. Anyone who has been in the forums for awhile knows exactly what I mean. Surely any of us can understand their hurt feelings but to go on the offensive and virtually target patients with their doom and gloom is selfish and self-serving. That's why I always jump in to give BOTH sides of the story.
Then there's the critic who really is a poor candidate for hair transplants and no doubt is either in an advanced Norwood class or is headed that way with family history confirming it. But these guys have done at least enough research to know that they are poor candidates for hair transplants so they make an agenda of slamming it. It's sort of the ole' "if I can't have it than no one else is going to" attitude and they either end up in hair systems or just keep shaving their head. Keep reading various forums long enough and you'll see the same patterns of behavior. Sound familiar Michael?
Do you guys remember the attacks on Damo? He too offered to share his pics with anyone yet he too was criticized. RESULTS DO NOT LIE whether they be good or bad. I think some individuals thrive on negativity and just can't stand to see someone else have success.
Then to imply that all hair transplants end up failing and quit growing is also absurd. Why do you think the guys that did have plugs are trying to get corrective surgery? It's because their plugs ARE still growing and do not have any more appeal because the natural hair that used to surround the plugs fell out from the progression of male pattern baldness! This is a completely different issue from scarring which of course would be anybody's concern as well. The truth of the matter is that re-growth of transplanted "terminal hair" has an extremely high rate of continued growth due to the genetic predisposition of terminal hair follicules. That is a matter of genetic science. Oh sure there are exceptions to some patients that have a terrible yield but that is almost ALWAYS attributable to incompetence of the doctor and/or medical staff. The reputable long standing docs do not have those problems.
Patients need to recognize that the possibilty of "shaving" or buzz cuttting down to a number one guide is generally not possible after hair transplants and something I always mention to patients UP FRONT. Michael is right in that the probability of a linear scar showing or the spots from FUE so that is always a trade off. Guess what? Do you really want to know how many guys pay thousands of their hard earned money in hair transplants just to shave it all off when it grows out? ZERO! Yes some buzz to a number two or three so the scar does not show through but NO ONE cuts it all off unless they got botched. I mean patients get hair transplants to grow them out not to cut all off, think about it.
Like I have always said, do adequate research, know your limitations and set realistic goals and you won't set yourself up for failure.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Aplunk,
On Andy Hunt http://headofhair.co.uk/ . Notice how dark that one decent sized-photo of him is? Why not have a pic of him in the DAYLIGHT. Since he his showin' his face, why not a short downloadable video of him turning around in the daylight and showing you the top of his head?
IF YOU were selling a terrific procedure that gave a man a nice head of hair, with no drawbacks, WOULDNT YOU DO THIS?
Why are they not? It would surely SELL more people on the procedure wouldnt it?
Why? Because it will look shockingly thin, the donor area hair doesnt "lay" right. Where I had only 100 plugs taken out 10 years ago on one side of the back of my head, is noticeably thinner than the other side. I admit these plugs average about 5 hairs (which is twice as big as they should have been) so they took 200 transplants worth of hair. But 200 transplants are NOTHING. Men typically evenutally get over 2000 before they are "finished".
I'd like to point out these guys like Gillenator have hundreds of posts on HairLossTalk.com, Hairlosshelp, Hairsite for a reason. Mahair, a few other guys, and occasionally me, KNOW what we are talking about when we say......f*** thats a mistake for a young guy. I really think one shouldnt even think about transplantation until they are AT LEAST 35. If they havent been using treatments to keep their hair also. If they have......they need to wait until at least 40 or more.
The hippocratic wreath contains 30-40,000 hairs. Sometimes less. They can only take half of it (which is way too much by the way, a third should be the upper limit).
I think the best thing a guy considering trasplantation could do is to get an old t-shirt, place it over his head, and use a magic marker to trace his hippocratic wreath (we all secretely know about where this would be if we werent using meds.....you can feel a difference), and then trace his wishlist-hairline. Examine the shirt, you will see that supply will not meet demand unless you stretch supply see-through thin. Ive seen mucho hair transplant's in person. Some look good, because the patient didnt lose much hair, and only needed frontal work. Many look good for 10-15 years, but after the sides receed, the back baldspot starts opening up and getting bigger......the donor area itself starts to thin with age, one's hair starts to look "curious".
Transplantation has caused the biggest lax in medical ethics in any area of medicine. Awfulplasticsurgery.com is a site dedicated to the folly of CELEBERITIES getting so much work done and how it often makes them look worse. I just saw a preview of Basic Instinct Two, and parts of Sharon Stone's face dont "move right", its not age, she's cut so many nerve endings and muscle tissue that it cant. It looks fine when she is not talking, but when her face is moving and in animation........it screams "face lift". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4283302.stm Look at the pic of the bald man in that photo, the back of his head.....how much hair do you think could realisticall be harvested from back there?
Remember, if that guy didnt like the surgery.......buzzing or shaving his head is FOREVER a non-option for him, he is screwed with a comb over looking transplant that is trying to stretch 40,000 aged-hairs over an entire scalp.
On Andy Hunt http://headofhair.co.uk/ . Notice how dark that one decent sized-photo of him is? Why not have a pic of him in the DAYLIGHT. Since he his showin' his face, why not a short downloadable video of him turning around in the daylight and showing you the top of his head?
IF YOU were selling a terrific procedure that gave a man a nice head of hair, with no drawbacks, WOULDNT YOU DO THIS?
Why are they not? It would surely SELL more people on the procedure wouldnt it?
Why? Because it will look shockingly thin, the donor area hair doesnt "lay" right. Where I had only 100 plugs taken out 10 years ago on one side of the back of my head, is noticeably thinner than the other side. I admit these plugs average about 5 hairs (which is twice as big as they should have been) so they took 200 transplants worth of hair. But 200 transplants are NOTHING. Men typically evenutally get over 2000 before they are "finished".
I'd like to point out these guys like Gillenator have hundreds of posts on HairLossTalk.com, Hairlosshelp, Hairsite for a reason. Mahair, a few other guys, and occasionally me, KNOW what we are talking about when we say......f*** thats a mistake for a young guy. I really think one shouldnt even think about transplantation until they are AT LEAST 35. If they havent been using treatments to keep their hair also. If they have......they need to wait until at least 40 or more.
The hippocratic wreath contains 30-40,000 hairs. Sometimes less. They can only take half of it (which is way too much by the way, a third should be the upper limit).
I think the best thing a guy considering trasplantation could do is to get an old t-shirt, place it over his head, and use a magic marker to trace his hippocratic wreath (we all secretely know about where this would be if we werent using meds.....you can feel a difference), and then trace his wishlist-hairline. Examine the shirt, you will see that supply will not meet demand unless you stretch supply see-through thin. Ive seen mucho hair transplant's in person. Some look good, because the patient didnt lose much hair, and only needed frontal work. Many look good for 10-15 years, but after the sides receed, the back baldspot starts opening up and getting bigger......the donor area itself starts to thin with age, one's hair starts to look "curious".
Transplantation has caused the biggest lax in medical ethics in any area of medicine. Awfulplasticsurgery.com is a site dedicated to the folly of CELEBERITIES getting so much work done and how it often makes them look worse. I just saw a preview of Basic Instinct Two, and parts of Sharon Stone's face dont "move right", its not age, she's cut so many nerve endings and muscle tissue that it cant. It looks fine when she is not talking, but when her face is moving and in animation........it screams "face lift". http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4283302.stm Look at the pic of the bald man in that photo, the back of his head.....how much hair do you think could realisticall be harvested from back there?
Remember, if that guy didnt like the surgery.......buzzing or shaving his head is FOREVER a non-option for him, he is screwed with a comb over looking transplant that is trying to stretch 40,000 aged-hairs over an entire scalp.
G
Guest
Guest
Sorry Michael,
You have me direly mistaken. Show me even "one" post anywhere on any forum where I have recommended a young man with male pattern baldness to get a hair transplant. It does not exist ANYWHERE. Even within this forum of HairLossTalk.com you will never find ONE post where I have done that. Anyone can pull my handle up and search every post under Gillenator and you won't find it here or anywhere else. So either speak truthfully with good intentions or quick making these senseless accusations. That's childish and not what these forums are for.
Let me now say this. First off Michael and Mahair, all three of us agree on more points than we probably disagree. I don't know why you seem to think that I feel it's okay for the younger men who are often times more emotionally impacted to rush into surgery. And why do you keep insisting to everyone that they will end up with this "little wreath" as you call it? That is absurd and irresponsible. Yes it does happen to some but not all. Just take a look around at guys with male pattern baldness and anyone can see the range of ages having varying degrees of hairloss and donor density. Every patient has their own unique situation but I can't help to notice the cynicism in your viewpoints.
But I do truly understand "any" patient who either has been the victim of poor work or like in your case had the former open donor procedures and as you say now its been ten years and you cannot "reverse" what happened to you. It now comes out why you are so angry like Mahair. Believe me when I said earlier that I have met with over 10,000 patients over the past 26 years now and I was not BS. Out of those numbers can you possibly imagine how many bad and horrific transplants I have seen and heard about? You don't know me from jack and I'm not trying to be cynical with you man. SERIOUSLY, I have seen real people with real feelings WEEP and TORMENT from what happened to them. To this day I still continually hear these horror stories. Remember, I started following this industry 26 years ago and that's why I waited until 1996 when the FUHT technology was developed as I stated before. But if you had your hair transplant ten years ago that also puts you in the year of 1996 right? Or close to it.
The main difference between you and I is that I chose to not have the plugs but you did. For years I did my research and I am not trying to demean you by saying that. But think abou it, you are unhappy with your results but I am estactic about mine. There are many guys like you who were lied to, you probably dealt with some commissioned salesman like Mahair did who never had a hair transplant but told you he did. Sound familiar? I am not trying to be funny but there are literally thousands that have been through this experience ONLY to be left with their lives in a trench. I sympathiize with EVERY ONE OF THEM including YOU and Mahair whether you believe that or not. Just think about this for a minute. "IF" you had taken the appropriate precautions and chosen the right technology that was available, you would be a HAPPY CAMPER! But unfortunately that did not happen to you. Still that does not give you or Mahair the right to make your futile attempts to trash the industry.
But now the fundamental problem is that you guys end up thinking "anyone" who works in this industry is a crook. You'll probably never believe that there's such a thing as a ethical hard working doctor with good intentions. As I said I know how you feel and understand. But as respectfully as I can say this to both of you is that the two things you guys ALWAYS have in common is this: Your doctor was and still is not someone who is considered reputable in the hairloss community AND a lack of research to find the RIGHT doctor. In 1996 there were approximately a dozen or so talented reputable hair transplant surgeons performing state-of-the-art FUHT procedures that you could have potentially received a nice result. There continues to be a MAMOUTH NEED FOR PATIENT EDUCATION!
BUT THAT'S WHY I BECAME AN INDEPENDENT ADVOCATE!!!! I see every day FIRSTHAND pics after pics how people are being taken advantage of. Now think about this for a minute. Don't you think a guy like me with all of my experience and knowledge could not work for just about any clinic and make the BIG $$$?! Don't you think after 26 years that I get continuous job offers including overseas? Use your head please. Do you really think I am making myself available on a full time basis for a WHOLE $1250 per month for the money?! And not even pay myself a salary from it? Why did you not take me up on my offer to validate my financial position in this industry? I can prove it anytime so when when you like to come over? Or do you want to continue to chose to believe there is no well intended indivduals like me? FYI, I have other sources of income totally unrelated to my advocacy and I am not financially dependent on this industry, plus my wife works.
I also want to clarify something for you regarding the other forums. Again you don't know me from Adam nor do you understand my true intentions. I "used" to participate at HLH until I questioned the ethics of one of their sponsoring BIG BUCK PAYING surgeons. I only questioned what that doctor was doing regarding a particular issue on what he was charging patients but of course "the troops and cheerleaders" were sent out to attack me without any basis. Later I received an e-mail from that forum and was told that if I continued to post there that I would be banned. Then they started deleting all of my posts. This has also happened to MANY others there for similiar reasons. Does that sound ethical to you? Give me a break. Anyone can do a search on my handle there and read it for themself. So don't try to falsely accuse me of attempting any commercially motivated activity there or any other forum because it does not exist. Give me even ONE example but you can't and you know it.
To date ONLY this forum, Hairsite, and Hairloss.about.com allow me and even encourage me to participate as an independent without any bias or money politics to any doctors or clinics. In other words they allow me to speak my mind with an independent voice in the interest of patient care, period. And that's why I specifically participate within these three forums because so far they have been fair.
The definition of a true advocate in any industry is to present the "entire picture" good and bad. My CLEAR agenda is to help other patients from making the same mistakes you and Mahair have made whether you believe me or not. My reward in life is having helped someone improve their life ESPECIALLY someone who was taken victim in this industry.
You too are a patient and so is Mahair and HE of all people knows if he needed my help that I would be there for him anytime. He knows this firsthand. BUT, you guys can insinuate all the baseless implications if you want to. Just know that it will NEVER deter me from helping others. If I can help one patient from despair, than it was all worth it in the end. Take care man.
You have me direly mistaken. Show me even "one" post anywhere on any forum where I have recommended a young man with male pattern baldness to get a hair transplant. It does not exist ANYWHERE. Even within this forum of HairLossTalk.com you will never find ONE post where I have done that. Anyone can pull my handle up and search every post under Gillenator and you won't find it here or anywhere else. So either speak truthfully with good intentions or quick making these senseless accusations. That's childish and not what these forums are for.
Let me now say this. First off Michael and Mahair, all three of us agree on more points than we probably disagree. I don't know why you seem to think that I feel it's okay for the younger men who are often times more emotionally impacted to rush into surgery. And why do you keep insisting to everyone that they will end up with this "little wreath" as you call it? That is absurd and irresponsible. Yes it does happen to some but not all. Just take a look around at guys with male pattern baldness and anyone can see the range of ages having varying degrees of hairloss and donor density. Every patient has their own unique situation but I can't help to notice the cynicism in your viewpoints.
But I do truly understand "any" patient who either has been the victim of poor work or like in your case had the former open donor procedures and as you say now its been ten years and you cannot "reverse" what happened to you. It now comes out why you are so angry like Mahair. Believe me when I said earlier that I have met with over 10,000 patients over the past 26 years now and I was not BS. Out of those numbers can you possibly imagine how many bad and horrific transplants I have seen and heard about? You don't know me from jack and I'm not trying to be cynical with you man. SERIOUSLY, I have seen real people with real feelings WEEP and TORMENT from what happened to them. To this day I still continually hear these horror stories. Remember, I started following this industry 26 years ago and that's why I waited until 1996 when the FUHT technology was developed as I stated before. But if you had your hair transplant ten years ago that also puts you in the year of 1996 right? Or close to it.
The main difference between you and I is that I chose to not have the plugs but you did. For years I did my research and I am not trying to demean you by saying that. But think abou it, you are unhappy with your results but I am estactic about mine. There are many guys like you who were lied to, you probably dealt with some commissioned salesman like Mahair did who never had a hair transplant but told you he did. Sound familiar? I am not trying to be funny but there are literally thousands that have been through this experience ONLY to be left with their lives in a trench. I sympathiize with EVERY ONE OF THEM including YOU and Mahair whether you believe that or not. Just think about this for a minute. "IF" you had taken the appropriate precautions and chosen the right technology that was available, you would be a HAPPY CAMPER! But unfortunately that did not happen to you. Still that does not give you or Mahair the right to make your futile attempts to trash the industry.
But now the fundamental problem is that you guys end up thinking "anyone" who works in this industry is a crook. You'll probably never believe that there's such a thing as a ethical hard working doctor with good intentions. As I said I know how you feel and understand. But as respectfully as I can say this to both of you is that the two things you guys ALWAYS have in common is this: Your doctor was and still is not someone who is considered reputable in the hairloss community AND a lack of research to find the RIGHT doctor. In 1996 there were approximately a dozen or so talented reputable hair transplant surgeons performing state-of-the-art FUHT procedures that you could have potentially received a nice result. There continues to be a MAMOUTH NEED FOR PATIENT EDUCATION!
BUT THAT'S WHY I BECAME AN INDEPENDENT ADVOCATE!!!! I see every day FIRSTHAND pics after pics how people are being taken advantage of. Now think about this for a minute. Don't you think a guy like me with all of my experience and knowledge could not work for just about any clinic and make the BIG $$$?! Don't you think after 26 years that I get continuous job offers including overseas? Use your head please. Do you really think I am making myself available on a full time basis for a WHOLE $1250 per month for the money?! And not even pay myself a salary from it? Why did you not take me up on my offer to validate my financial position in this industry? I can prove it anytime so when when you like to come over? Or do you want to continue to chose to believe there is no well intended indivduals like me? FYI, I have other sources of income totally unrelated to my advocacy and I am not financially dependent on this industry, plus my wife works.
I also want to clarify something for you regarding the other forums. Again you don't know me from Adam nor do you understand my true intentions. I "used" to participate at HLH until I questioned the ethics of one of their sponsoring BIG BUCK PAYING surgeons. I only questioned what that doctor was doing regarding a particular issue on what he was charging patients but of course "the troops and cheerleaders" were sent out to attack me without any basis. Later I received an e-mail from that forum and was told that if I continued to post there that I would be banned. Then they started deleting all of my posts. This has also happened to MANY others there for similiar reasons. Does that sound ethical to you? Give me a break. Anyone can do a search on my handle there and read it for themself. So don't try to falsely accuse me of attempting any commercially motivated activity there or any other forum because it does not exist. Give me even ONE example but you can't and you know it.
To date ONLY this forum, Hairsite, and Hairloss.about.com allow me and even encourage me to participate as an independent without any bias or money politics to any doctors or clinics. In other words they allow me to speak my mind with an independent voice in the interest of patient care, period. And that's why I specifically participate within these three forums because so far they have been fair.
The definition of a true advocate in any industry is to present the "entire picture" good and bad. My CLEAR agenda is to help other patients from making the same mistakes you and Mahair have made whether you believe me or not. My reward in life is having helped someone improve their life ESPECIALLY someone who was taken victim in this industry.
You too are a patient and so is Mahair and HE of all people knows if he needed my help that I would be there for him anytime. He knows this firsthand. BUT, you guys can insinuate all the baseless implications if you want to. Just know that it will NEVER deter me from helping others. If I can help one patient from despair, than it was all worth it in the end. Take care man.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Ha,
Puttin' words into my mouth. Nobody ever accused YOU of trying to get young guys of rushing out to get an hair transplant.
However, YOU are on 4 hairloss forums with hundreds of posts extolling the virtues of hair transplant's. There are others on the forums always "talking up" hair transplant's and we both know it.
Due to the progressive nature of baldness, and the fact that the VAST majority of men who begin to bald before 35 WILL INDEED SOMEDAY CUEBALL (even if its when they are 90), I have come to think transplantation is primarily a mistake.
Even with treatments like spironolactone, propecia, minoxidil, nizoral, copper peptides (i.e. the proven ones), recession may be held off for long periods of time (couple of decades), but age-related thinning in the late 40's-60's are something the users of even these WILL be facing (and so will you gillenator if cloning or gene therapies dont come about).
As Ive stated MANY times before, the 30-40,000 hairs most of us keep no matter what (although Ive seen some small hippocratic wreaths with less than 20,000 hairs http://www.cardiologytoday.com/200003/Baldies.jpg or especially this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/ ... tewart.jpg make transplantation a HUGE mistake for many men if a new technology that can produce at least 30,000 hairs doesnt come to pass.
Like I said, hundreds of posts on various forums, all extolling the virtues of transplantation.......doing that all for the love of humanity huh? Yeah right.
Ive been to Docs and heard the aggressive pressure and sales techniques, Ive asked the questions I already knew the answers to and have heard the lies MANY times. I know whats going on in that biz.
Hair transplantation makes Liars out of doctors. They are prescribing something that in many cases they know will be disasterous 20,30 years down the road, but do it anyway because its one of the few ways plastic surgeons can become millionaires. Its why they are so terrified of cloning and gene therapies.......they know the golden cow baldies will (in about 10 years) have a real choice, and the well will dry up.
Puttin' words into my mouth. Nobody ever accused YOU of trying to get young guys of rushing out to get an hair transplant.
However, YOU are on 4 hairloss forums with hundreds of posts extolling the virtues of hair transplant's. There are others on the forums always "talking up" hair transplant's and we both know it.
Due to the progressive nature of baldness, and the fact that the VAST majority of men who begin to bald before 35 WILL INDEED SOMEDAY CUEBALL (even if its when they are 90), I have come to think transplantation is primarily a mistake.
Even with treatments like spironolactone, propecia, minoxidil, nizoral, copper peptides (i.e. the proven ones), recession may be held off for long periods of time (couple of decades), but age-related thinning in the late 40's-60's are something the users of even these WILL be facing (and so will you gillenator if cloning or gene therapies dont come about).
As Ive stated MANY times before, the 30-40,000 hairs most of us keep no matter what (although Ive seen some small hippocratic wreaths with less than 20,000 hairs http://www.cardiologytoday.com/200003/Baldies.jpg or especially this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/ ... tewart.jpg make transplantation a HUGE mistake for many men if a new technology that can produce at least 30,000 hairs doesnt come to pass.
Like I said, hundreds of posts on various forums, all extolling the virtues of transplantation.......doing that all for the love of humanity huh? Yeah right.
Ive been to Docs and heard the aggressive pressure and sales techniques, Ive asked the questions I already knew the answers to and have heard the lies MANY times. I know whats going on in that biz.
Hair transplantation makes Liars out of doctors. They are prescribing something that in many cases they know will be disasterous 20,30 years down the road, but do it anyway because its one of the few ways plastic surgeons can become millionaires. Its why they are so terrified of cloning and gene therapies.......they know the golden cow baldies will (in about 10 years) have a real choice, and the well will dry up.
G
Guest
Guest
Like I said Michael we agree on many points. And yes I could not agree with you more that guys who have the potential of progressing to the advanced Norwood classes are setting themselves up for failure if they start hair transplants too young or even at all. But even more, nobody needs to be a rocket scientist to figure out there would never be enough donor to cover what's missing at those levels. You keep referring to cloning, HM, etc as the "near coming" savior but you'll be waiting a long time. C'mon Michael you've been around for awhile. Even if cloning does become viable in our lifetimes do you think it's going to be retailed at Walmart? THEY"LL CHARGE BIG, BIG BUCKS! HELLO?? And IMO it will be far out of financial reach for most patients because don't forget, the cloned follicules still have to be implanted too.
It gets back to experience Michael and if there is one thing I have noted over the years are "the variances between patients". For example, I am 51 years old, way past your forty-something gauge and my donor zones are "thick and dense". Do you want me to e-mail you my pics? And then you are going to say "but for how long Gil?", right? How come you never want to see some great work when it's offered to you? You never respond to those questions man.
My male pattern baldness comes solely from my maternal side in that my maternal grandfather and uncle both progressed to Norwood 6's. My uncle is still living and is now 75 years old and still a class 6. His donor has not thinned out as you insist and my grandfather's did not either right up until the time he passed. He had a thick snow white rim of hair that went ear-to-ear and still had haircuts.
Now here's where the variance comes in. My paternal side had no male pattern baldness whatsoever. My father is 76 and has a good head of white hair and so do his two living brothers who also are in their 70's. I also have two brothers close in age to me and neither have male pattern baldness.
In addition I received a natural mild wave characteristic and a much coarser degree of hair quality from my father. The maternal side has thinner caliper and straight hair. But the science in all of this is that I received genetic attributes from both sides. Yes I freaked out when the male pattern baldness set in but I had some advantages in the cosmetic traits of my own hair. My 4417 grafts in the frontal to midscalp with approximately 700 of those to my crown produced an illusion of coverage that is still no where near my original density levels. BUT IT LOOKS LIKE GREAT COVERAGE!!
IF those traits and family history were different for me and weighed far more to the "negative side" and lets say my uncles and grandfather "did" have their donor zones thin out dramatically with age. Then there's a good chance I may not have ever had my hair transplants. And it's for the reasons you mentioned, I would only be setting myself up for failure. But you have to consider ALL of each individuals' own characteristics.
But the other thing you are neglecting to consider are the differences in patients' goals. I worked with a retired patient once and he was a widower for about five years or so. He had been out and about socially again and looking for companionship. This guy was already a class 6 but he had good donor density at his ripe age of 73. His hair was snow white too. I kept asking him why he thought he needed a hair transplant to socialize. He always replied "I don't need it, I just want a little bit in the front again, that's all". I kept challenging him, will you be happy with just a little bit since everything behind it and in back is gone. I told him to not make any decisions and to really research and think things through. We talked extensively about risks. Over some time he kept contacting me and we met two more times and had similiar dialogue as before. He said "I'm not trying to look like you or Elvis or anybody else, I just want a little bit in the front". What's wrong with that?
I was sort of surprised that a man his age still cared about his hair. And although you just don't see men his age wanting hair transplants, this man was healthy both physically and had a great outlook on life. He was not a depressed individual, quite the contrary, knew what he wanted and why he wanted it. He was not desperate. He was not trying to look like anyone else or trying to be someone he was not.
He ended up researching hair transplant doctors and he chose a reputable one who ALSO conveyed the same things to him. He told me his surgeon gave him an idea of what 1200 grafts would do from a high hairline working back towards his midscalp. I never heard back from him until about two years later when I received some pics he mailed to me. HE LOOKED GOOD and alot different. The pic was taken in sunlight outside too. He now looked like a guy who had some light coverage but not bald. His white hair against his light complexion also did him some justice.
But the point is that he is happy! His quality of life was improved, He knew his limitations and accepted them because he had very conservative goals. So even though you or I think we would never do something like that, his donor was healthy and strong and he "just wanted a little up front".
BTW, I have not posted on HLH for almost two years now and have not posted on HTN since last fall. So again you are obviously making erroneous assumptions. And you insinuate that all I do is promote the industry but you don't have a clue on the content of my posts because none of them contain promotional content. NONE. Show me just one please. You can't and you know it.
But again I understand why you feel the way you do. You are only confirming what I outlined before.. You can keep slamming the industry if you choose to do that. But just know I WILL BE THERE to give both sides to the story...the complete facts.
It gets back to experience Michael and if there is one thing I have noted over the years are "the variances between patients". For example, I am 51 years old, way past your forty-something gauge and my donor zones are "thick and dense". Do you want me to e-mail you my pics? And then you are going to say "but for how long Gil?", right? How come you never want to see some great work when it's offered to you? You never respond to those questions man.
My male pattern baldness comes solely from my maternal side in that my maternal grandfather and uncle both progressed to Norwood 6's. My uncle is still living and is now 75 years old and still a class 6. His donor has not thinned out as you insist and my grandfather's did not either right up until the time he passed. He had a thick snow white rim of hair that went ear-to-ear and still had haircuts.
Now here's where the variance comes in. My paternal side had no male pattern baldness whatsoever. My father is 76 and has a good head of white hair and so do his two living brothers who also are in their 70's. I also have two brothers close in age to me and neither have male pattern baldness.
In addition I received a natural mild wave characteristic and a much coarser degree of hair quality from my father. The maternal side has thinner caliper and straight hair. But the science in all of this is that I received genetic attributes from both sides. Yes I freaked out when the male pattern baldness set in but I had some advantages in the cosmetic traits of my own hair. My 4417 grafts in the frontal to midscalp with approximately 700 of those to my crown produced an illusion of coverage that is still no where near my original density levels. BUT IT LOOKS LIKE GREAT COVERAGE!!
IF those traits and family history were different for me and weighed far more to the "negative side" and lets say my uncles and grandfather "did" have their donor zones thin out dramatically with age. Then there's a good chance I may not have ever had my hair transplants. And it's for the reasons you mentioned, I would only be setting myself up for failure. But you have to consider ALL of each individuals' own characteristics.
But the other thing you are neglecting to consider are the differences in patients' goals. I worked with a retired patient once and he was a widower for about five years or so. He had been out and about socially again and looking for companionship. This guy was already a class 6 but he had good donor density at his ripe age of 73. His hair was snow white too. I kept asking him why he thought he needed a hair transplant to socialize. He always replied "I don't need it, I just want a little bit in the front again, that's all". I kept challenging him, will you be happy with just a little bit since everything behind it and in back is gone. I told him to not make any decisions and to really research and think things through. We talked extensively about risks. Over some time he kept contacting me and we met two more times and had similiar dialogue as before. He said "I'm not trying to look like you or Elvis or anybody else, I just want a little bit in the front". What's wrong with that?
I was sort of surprised that a man his age still cared about his hair. And although you just don't see men his age wanting hair transplants, this man was healthy both physically and had a great outlook on life. He was not a depressed individual, quite the contrary, knew what he wanted and why he wanted it. He was not desperate. He was not trying to look like anyone else or trying to be someone he was not.
He ended up researching hair transplant doctors and he chose a reputable one who ALSO conveyed the same things to him. He told me his surgeon gave him an idea of what 1200 grafts would do from a high hairline working back towards his midscalp. I never heard back from him until about two years later when I received some pics he mailed to me. HE LOOKED GOOD and alot different. The pic was taken in sunlight outside too. He now looked like a guy who had some light coverage but not bald. His white hair against his light complexion also did him some justice.
But the point is that he is happy! His quality of life was improved, He knew his limitations and accepted them because he had very conservative goals. So even though you or I think we would never do something like that, his donor was healthy and strong and he "just wanted a little up front".
BTW, I have not posted on HLH for almost two years now and have not posted on HTN since last fall. So again you are obviously making erroneous assumptions. And you insinuate that all I do is promote the industry but you don't have a clue on the content of my posts because none of them contain promotional content. NONE. Show me just one please. You can't and you know it.
But again I understand why you feel the way you do. You are only confirming what I outlined before.. You can keep slamming the industry if you choose to do that. But just know I WILL BE THERE to give both sides to the story...the complete facts.
michael barry
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 12
You sound like you were a good candidate for surgery. I would proboably also be. If you seen me.......you would no doubt say...."that son of a b**ch has a full head of hair", but I really dont, If I pull my hair back, you see a few plugs in my temporal area. My hair is a bit like the actor Jude Laws'. Its a bit more full than that though to be honest. Its natrurally thick.
Ive stated that ideal surgical candidates are men who start receeding slowly in their thirties and forties, have ideal shaped heads with big donor supplies, and have not been using treatments for years so they know where they would be without treatments. Treatments fool people. Consider Martin's pics at the hairlosstalk photo gallery after one year. If a kid has been using the big three at the first sign of recession.....he has no idea where he would have been without them, as we all know their effects fade with time.........he will cueball to where he would have eventually given the current technology. DO I think things will be coming along that will be able to save the hair a man has growing upon starting them? Yes I do, but he is still making a bet getting a hair transplant in case those things dont come to fruition...Im conservative here.
I plan on writing one long post on the things one should really consider before transplantation, replete with many photos......with a follow up post on the gimmicks the industry pulls in sales and link back to it for newbies from time to time. Ive researched hair for a little over a year now, and pretty much know what is going on and what will be going on in the future. NEWSFLASH.....there will never be a "pill" that cures your hair. There may be a topical treatment that destroys androgen receptor expression forever (that is being worked on at one company---wish I had the link). However, Im about through posting heavily. I will proboably always be a once or twice a month visitor to sites, but that will be it.
ON cloning.....They are culturing dermal papilla cells alone at Anderans, but they are undoubtably doing what Gho has said has to be done....culturing a few Outer Root Sheath cells along with them. You see the DP cells dont contain stem cells. IF you culture DP cells alone, you may be able to get hair that grows for one anagen cycle and falls out, never to regrow. They obviously know this. They will proboably have to eventually use a mixture of ORS cells, DP cells, and epilitheal cells cultured in growth factors in a petri dish for optimal results. Stem cells migrate from all of these areas plus the arrector pilli at the end of the shed phase before the rebeginning of anagen. I imagine to get optimal cells to cultivate, they will have to replicate this for beautiful hair. James Bond, the most knowledgable scientific poster Ive found on any hairloss site in this area, has interviewed Gho, others associated with the bigger players. Washenik is saying five more years and he feels certain. JB is saying the first generation cloning will not be nearly as good a product that will be avialable in fifteen more years or so........when it will be really good stuff.
YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND WITH CLONING>.....they are ALREADY selling woundcare and skin-regenration products with super results at Intercyclex. Its based ON THE SAME technology. No cancer, terrific results, regrowing skin over wounds, burns, rejuvinating faces using stem-cell based technologies. The HAIR IS THE SAME THING. This stuff is EXPECTED STRONGLY by the players to happen. Anderans is betting the farm on it, Intercylex is working with the FDA right now with it. PhoenixBio, a Japaense company, has released photos of a mouse with cell based hair growth, Fuchs is working hard at the Rockeffeller Center (many feel Anderans researchers are sitting back, and learning from Fuchs discoveries as she is one of the most brilliant human minds on this planet---a true mega genius).
You dont see Bosley advertising it, because EVERYBODY would be waiting on it and not getting hair transplant's for the next 5-10 years. The New Yorker interview in which Larry Bosley stated that cloning was far off was just a sham, the truth would dry up clinic business for the next few years and he knows it. All that being said..........I still advise kids to wait on that "hairline hair transplant" though......make em' come out with it.....lets see the results. Im conservative about things like this.
However, JamesBond posted recently on the surgeons trying scare people away from cloning in the future with the "scraggely hair" and cancer-scare......it hasnt happened in trials at all with mice or people (cancer) and Dr. Paul Kemp proudly displayed the sixty six hairs he grew with the Intercyclex trial (he was only injected in a tiny area and got great density) with good results. They are working on consistency. However, the science behind cloning is 100 percent (JB) solid. It "should" happen unless something totally unforseen comes up.
Even if it doesnt, a gene-therapy (after we discover all the hairloss genes <4 now known out of proboably 6 or so>), that rides harmless viruses into the scalp and imprints its DNA on potential male pattern baldness follicles, immunizing them to hormones will proboably be whats used in the distant future, opening up transplantation to many men if they want to lower their hairlines etc.....
Believe me, Ive kept up with whats coming, but I believe the wisest course to pursue is for a guy not to do anything based on what MIGHT happen........
Ive stated that ideal surgical candidates are men who start receeding slowly in their thirties and forties, have ideal shaped heads with big donor supplies, and have not been using treatments for years so they know where they would be without treatments. Treatments fool people. Consider Martin's pics at the hairlosstalk photo gallery after one year. If a kid has been using the big three at the first sign of recession.....he has no idea where he would have been without them, as we all know their effects fade with time.........he will cueball to where he would have eventually given the current technology. DO I think things will be coming along that will be able to save the hair a man has growing upon starting them? Yes I do, but he is still making a bet getting a hair transplant in case those things dont come to fruition...Im conservative here.
I plan on writing one long post on the things one should really consider before transplantation, replete with many photos......with a follow up post on the gimmicks the industry pulls in sales and link back to it for newbies from time to time. Ive researched hair for a little over a year now, and pretty much know what is going on and what will be going on in the future. NEWSFLASH.....there will never be a "pill" that cures your hair. There may be a topical treatment that destroys androgen receptor expression forever (that is being worked on at one company---wish I had the link). However, Im about through posting heavily. I will proboably always be a once or twice a month visitor to sites, but that will be it.
ON cloning.....They are culturing dermal papilla cells alone at Anderans, but they are undoubtably doing what Gho has said has to be done....culturing a few Outer Root Sheath cells along with them. You see the DP cells dont contain stem cells. IF you culture DP cells alone, you may be able to get hair that grows for one anagen cycle and falls out, never to regrow. They obviously know this. They will proboably have to eventually use a mixture of ORS cells, DP cells, and epilitheal cells cultured in growth factors in a petri dish for optimal results. Stem cells migrate from all of these areas plus the arrector pilli at the end of the shed phase before the rebeginning of anagen. I imagine to get optimal cells to cultivate, they will have to replicate this for beautiful hair. James Bond, the most knowledgable scientific poster Ive found on any hairloss site in this area, has interviewed Gho, others associated with the bigger players. Washenik is saying five more years and he feels certain. JB is saying the first generation cloning will not be nearly as good a product that will be avialable in fifteen more years or so........when it will be really good stuff.
YOU HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND WITH CLONING>.....they are ALREADY selling woundcare and skin-regenration products with super results at Intercyclex. Its based ON THE SAME technology. No cancer, terrific results, regrowing skin over wounds, burns, rejuvinating faces using stem-cell based technologies. The HAIR IS THE SAME THING. This stuff is EXPECTED STRONGLY by the players to happen. Anderans is betting the farm on it, Intercylex is working with the FDA right now with it. PhoenixBio, a Japaense company, has released photos of a mouse with cell based hair growth, Fuchs is working hard at the Rockeffeller Center (many feel Anderans researchers are sitting back, and learning from Fuchs discoveries as she is one of the most brilliant human minds on this planet---a true mega genius).
You dont see Bosley advertising it, because EVERYBODY would be waiting on it and not getting hair transplant's for the next 5-10 years. The New Yorker interview in which Larry Bosley stated that cloning was far off was just a sham, the truth would dry up clinic business for the next few years and he knows it. All that being said..........I still advise kids to wait on that "hairline hair transplant" though......make em' come out with it.....lets see the results. Im conservative about things like this.
However, JamesBond posted recently on the surgeons trying scare people away from cloning in the future with the "scraggely hair" and cancer-scare......it hasnt happened in trials at all with mice or people (cancer) and Dr. Paul Kemp proudly displayed the sixty six hairs he grew with the Intercyclex trial (he was only injected in a tiny area and got great density) with good results. They are working on consistency. However, the science behind cloning is 100 percent (JB) solid. It "should" happen unless something totally unforseen comes up.
Even if it doesnt, a gene-therapy (after we discover all the hairloss genes <4 now known out of proboably 6 or so>), that rides harmless viruses into the scalp and imprints its DNA on potential male pattern baldness follicles, immunizing them to hormones will proboably be whats used in the distant future, opening up transplantation to many men if they want to lower their hairlines etc.....
Believe me, Ive kept up with whats coming, but I believe the wisest course to pursue is for a guy not to do anything based on what MIGHT happen........
Aplunk1
Senior Member
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I'm not going to step in between you two and argue about hair transplant's, although I appreciate both viewpoints.
I must agree with Gillenator that hair transplantation is a wonderful surgical option, given that all the research and expectations are in line.
As far as Michael goes, I will agree that certain things can go wrong, and that treatments might not readily be available 5 years down the line, when my regimine loses efficacy.
--But the real reason I made this post was to thank you, Michael, for providing us on some HM information. This is truly remarkable, and I don't doubt that the science behind it is "solid."
I must agree with Gillenator that hair transplantation is a wonderful surgical option, given that all the research and expectations are in line.
As far as Michael goes, I will agree that certain things can go wrong, and that treatments might not readily be available 5 years down the line, when my regimine loses efficacy.
--But the real reason I made this post was to thank you, Michael, for providing us on some HM information. This is truly remarkable, and I don't doubt that the science behind it is "solid."
G
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Guest
WOW! I just read Michael's post and I could not agree more with you Aplunk1. I have never before read a summary update on HM as thorough as that! I have been recently reading up on the slate stem cell trials on mice at the University of Penn and I do agree there has been more progress made in the last five years than probably in the last 50.
And again I agree Michael and have posted countless replies on threads where guys start asking for feedback on hairlines and you're correct in that starting one too low or even starting surgery too young will only commit them to more and more surgery and eventually the supply will run out, not to mention their wallet!
And for all the reasons I mentioned in my last several posts is why I clearly see both sides to it. There are always the benefits weighed against the risks. But I truly present any feedback or help I can possibly offer patients based on the culmination of what I see on the inside which includes alot of success stories both medicinally and surgically. In the past five years or so I have seen scores of improvements made to both the technology and quality of surgical hair restoration even though there are still some obvious risks to it. But the bottom line is that patients want to know the "full implications" so they can make the best decisions within the limited resources they have.
You would be amazed at how many times patients will ask me "if I think they need a hair transplant" based on the pics the e-mail me. I "always" reply that nobody ever "needs" a hair transplant and that a hair transplant will "never cure" their hairloss dilemma. I have posted this type of thing countless times too. My other skepticisims of HM and cloning is the cost thing too. I just hope that if it does become viable that patients won't be taken advantage of financially speaking. Transplants are expensive enough!
Yes I am hoping that meds even better ones will continue to be developed not that I like the idea of taking any pills. Patients do respond differently to meds both short term and long term. Propecia has only been used now since the late nineties so we can only hope for the best.
Either way I think there are improvements in the horizon regarding all aspects of treating hairloss. I try to remain an optimist. I for one will be looking forward to your updates on the HM research and thank you for the time you have been putting into it because I know it's very time consuming.
And again I agree Michael and have posted countless replies on threads where guys start asking for feedback on hairlines and you're correct in that starting one too low or even starting surgery too young will only commit them to more and more surgery and eventually the supply will run out, not to mention their wallet!
And for all the reasons I mentioned in my last several posts is why I clearly see both sides to it. There are always the benefits weighed against the risks. But I truly present any feedback or help I can possibly offer patients based on the culmination of what I see on the inside which includes alot of success stories both medicinally and surgically. In the past five years or so I have seen scores of improvements made to both the technology and quality of surgical hair restoration even though there are still some obvious risks to it. But the bottom line is that patients want to know the "full implications" so they can make the best decisions within the limited resources they have.
You would be amazed at how many times patients will ask me "if I think they need a hair transplant" based on the pics the e-mail me. I "always" reply that nobody ever "needs" a hair transplant and that a hair transplant will "never cure" their hairloss dilemma. I have posted this type of thing countless times too. My other skepticisims of HM and cloning is the cost thing too. I just hope that if it does become viable that patients won't be taken advantage of financially speaking. Transplants are expensive enough!
Yes I am hoping that meds even better ones will continue to be developed not that I like the idea of taking any pills. Patients do respond differently to meds both short term and long term. Propecia has only been used now since the late nineties so we can only hope for the best.
Either way I think there are improvements in the horizon regarding all aspects of treating hairloss. I try to remain an optimist. I for one will be looking forward to your updates on the HM research and thank you for the time you have been putting into it because I know it's very time consuming.