A theory on why so many forum users get finasteride sides

Boondock

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We've noticed for a long time that stacks of forum users get sides from finasteride. Despite the 2-3% that had trouble in trials, if you read the boards you'd think the difference was more like 50%. Why?

Traditionally people have ascribed this to the placebo effect. On the boards, this claim says, people read about sides, and therefore experience them. That's never felt like a satisfying explanation for me - certainly not for the numbers we're describing.

Thus, I want to put forward an alternative theory. I believe that the sample of people on message forums - unlike those in the clinical trials - is self-selecting, and therefore distorted. This is to say: it takes a certain kind of person to visit a hair loss message forum, and these individuals may have a different response to surveys than the broader population.

In the context of finasteride, I believe that the relevant factor here is that forum users tend to be sensitive people. By that I do not mean that they're girly girls, just that they pay attention to their bodies a whole lot more than most people. A lot of people don't know they're getting hairloss until they're NW3; hair loss forum members are often counting hairs even at NW1.

It follows that since these are the kind of people who pay close attention to their bodies, they may be the kind of people to experience and worry about sides from finasteride.

I actually think that, if you look hard enough, most people would notice some difference with how they feel on finasteride. The difference is that most people don't look hard enough, and don't really care about it. They shrug it off.

Forum users, on the other hand, are hyper-aware of everything that's going on with them. As soon as they experience some change in how they feel on finasteride - and they probably will, since it is blocking a major androgen - their internal warning system goes haywire. The difference in functioning may not be that significant, but it seems bigger because they're focusing on it. Any bodily function can seem more of an issue than it is when you pay more attention to it than you should.

And, because these individuals are more often hyper-aware, they can't take their mind off it. If they feel slightly odd on finasteride, they'll be unable to focus off of that. It bugs them, so they quit the meds.

So basically what I'm saying is:

1. Forum users are disproportionately sensitive and hyper-aware individuals.

2. Finasteride often causes minor changes in feeling, which most can ignore or do not notice.

3. Hyper-aware people, however, will notice these effects.

4. Therefore, forum users disproportionately experience side effects.

Discuss.
 

Ende

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I think most people get conscious of their hairloss after negative feedback from others. As for finasteride side effects, you had shitty days, days were things didn't feel normal before ingesting finasteride too, but that doesn't mean that finasteride isn't actually causing side effects. It's important to check if any trouble you might be experiencing, is related to your drug use. Some have experienced severe side effects from use of finasteride. I'm one of them, and I assure you that hypogonadism isn't a subtle side effect you've to look for.

But for the sake of argument, I'm very sensitive to drugs and changes to my body in general (as long as I can feel them).
 

nickypoos

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I believe the whole hyper-sensitive to body stuff. I personally am very self-conscious and don't want my looks to go. But obviously more people who are sensitive to side-effects are coming to these boards to post and seek advice... so a much higher proportion of people on the boards are people who experience sides. This isn’t very shocking. I personally don't get sides; I come to these boards for knowledge, and to share my own.
 

Ende

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nickypoos said:
I personally am very self-conscious and don't want my looks to go.
Who does? Anyway, imagine if women found shaved heads more attractive than the ones with hair (as in opposite of the actual situation). I believe everyone on this board would shave their head right now and live happy ever after.
 

DoctorHouse

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I also think the mental stress of worrying about if the drug is going to give you sides and cause a shed is enough to inhibit sexual function. And that is compounded with the fact that you are starting to go bald and are worrying constantly if the drug is going to save your hair or not and that you are going be become less attractive if the drug does not work. So I agree with Boondock about the fact that those who tend to worry alot about their looks tend to be more in tuned to everything about them and that compounded with mental stress can cause a limp noodle. However, I think the watery semen is definitely a real common side that has nothing to do with stress or what is mentioned above.
 

Ende

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and what about reduced libido or completely loss of, erectile dysfunction, which means that your dick isn't working as it should - even when you're on your own, and gynecomastia? Think those sides are made up in people's minds?
 

Boondock

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DoctorHouse said:
I also think the mental stress of worrying about if the drug is going to give you sides and cause a shed is enough to inhibit sexual function. And that is compounded with the fact that you are starting to go bald and are worrying constantly if the drug is going to save your hair or not and that you are going be become less attractive if the drug does not work. So I agree with Boondock about the fact that those who tend to worry alot about their looks tend to be more in tuned to everything about them and that compounded with mental stress can cause a limp noodle. However, I think the watery semen is definitely a real common side that has nothing to do with stress or what is mentioned above.

This is the crux of the matter for me, though.

I believe that a lot of the sides are "real", to an extent. They're not made up, and in fact it would be more surprising if 80% blocking of a major androgen had no effect on the body.

The difference is how attuned various people are to what's going on. Board users, I think, are hypersensitive by nature. If they weren't, they wouldn't be here. A large chunk of people online worrying about hair loss are obsessive.

Why does this matter? Because I think a lot of people won't even notice the change to watery semen. A lot of people really don't pay attention to these things, just as they didn't pay attention to their hair until it was a NW3.

The kind of people who are forum-goers, however, usually will pay attention to these things.
 

Boondock

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Enden said:
and what about reduced libido or completely loss of, erectile dysfunction, which means that your dick isn't working as it should - even when you're on your own, and gynecomastia? Think those sides are made up in people's minds?

Obviously not. But I would argue that the majority of people who give up due to side-effects do not experience problems this severe.
 

Ende

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Boondock said:
Enden said:
and what about reduced libido or completely loss of, erectile dysfunction, which means that your dick isn't working as it should - even when you're on your own, and gynecomastia? Think those sides are made up in people's minds?

Obviously not. But I would argue that the majority of people who give up due to side-effects do not experience problems this severe.
Sure, if you're worried about minor side effects. I didn't give a sh*t about watery semen, which I think is a very common side effect. And which guy wouldn't notice that? Ball ache concerned me, as did occasional rash on my arms a few times after ingesting finasteride. I think most of the finasteride users are willing to sacrifice that for hair. Side effects usually begin as unpleasant. Most of them stays as they are, while others advance, causing severe problems. You should be concerned about side effects and possible side effects.
 

Boondock

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Enden said:
Boondock said:
Enden said:
and what about reduced libido or completely loss of, erectile dysfunction, which means that your dick isn't working as it should - even when you're on your own, and gynecomastia? Think those sides are made up in people's minds?

I didn't give a sh*t about watery semen, which I think is a very common side effect. And which guy wouldn't notice that?

Agree with 90% of what you wrote, but this point I think isn't such a clear question. I reckon a lot of guys wouldn't notice watery semen that much. Not everyone pays attention to these things, just as many guys literally don't notice hair loss until they're NW3+. Sounds weird to us, but it's reality for some.
 

Mew

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Boondock

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Thanks for the links, but they really answer a different question. They seem to be dealing with the question 'Why do men who experience sides on finasteride, experience them?', whereas I'm asking the question: 'Why do more forum users seem to experience sides than the 2-3% in the clinical trials?'

I suppose the answer to the latter question is either:

1. The initial trials were wrong.

2. The initial trials were correct, and I'm merely wrong in believing that more than 2% of forum users report sides.

3. It's pure nocebo.

4. It's something else
 

timbo

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People on hair loss forums are more than likely to be exposed to online horror stories than people who simply go to their doctor and get a prescription. This fits in nicely with Boondock's theory because people who don't research a drug that they plan on taking every day of their life are probably the type who don't pay attention to detail.

I would be willing to wager that if finasteride were to be tested again in another clinical trial, the results would be very similar. If you tell people which side effects are likely to occur, the incidence of those side effects will skyrocket.
 

dougfunny

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I think clinical trials prove 2% of men notice sides - not 2% get sides.

I bet if the men in the trial were told to carefully check the quality of their semen, then 100% would get sides. Who would notice a change in semen quality if they were not looking for it? Just a few weirdos.
 

timbo

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dougfunny said:
I think clinical trials prove 2% of men notice sides - not 2% get sides.

Right, so if the side effects are so mild that you can't even notice them, I would say the drug is worth taking...

dougfunny said:
I bet if the men in the trial were told to carefully check the quality of their semen, then 100% would get sides.

You better not include me in your hypothetical study, because mine hasn't changed a bit. In texture and quantity!

dougfunny said:
Who would notice a change in semen quality if they were not looking for it? Just a few weirdos.

I doubt it. If you are participating in a the testing of a drug which hasn't been approved to the public, the uncertainty and nervousness would put most people on high alert.
 

BitchBoy

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I think the problem is that we are essentially healthy when we take the drug. As fins primary goal for us is cosmetic, any side effects that reduce our bodies from their "optimal" state are much more noticeable.

As for looking for sides, I'd been doing all kinds of "illicit" drugs for years before taking finasteride without really caring about the risks. So the idea of taking an acutal legally manufactured drug didn't worry me in the slightest. I used to chuckle when people would display concern about having a drink maybe an hour or so after taking two asprin thinking about the night when I'd be drinking, popping, snorting for 12 hour stretches.

I'm still pretty amazed I got sides and propbably had them along time before I noticed. But when one day you realise that you can't get a proper hard on anymore and you've even lost that desire to really "f***" and you're a fit healthy young guy you have to take notice.
 
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