A new theory of the underlying cause of Hairloss

BetaBoy

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A direct antiandrogen effect would have been noticed on the hair follicles waaaay before that
Why? And lets not over blow it he recovered a peach fuzz at most.
spironolactone is a dud topically
Yes because you avoid first pass metabolism when you apply it topically there by losing the effect of the anti-androgenic metabolites.
Hydralazine reported to regrow hair and so does verapamil
Of the many listed side effects from common to rare in both medications there is not a single mention of hair growing properties.
You've really come against a large body of literature not only on hair loss but what continued vascular stiffness can do even in children it can cause hair loss.
I've yet to see a single piece of compelling literature to support your assertions.
 

OtyMac

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Why? And lets not over blow it he recovered a peach fuzz at most.

An 80 year old man who had been bald for 6 years recovered at least 2 Norwood levels that I remember. The pictures were by Bryan many years ago.



Yes because you avoid first pass metabolism when you apply it topically there by losing the effect of the anti-androgenic metabolites.

OOOPS...blunder. Topical spironolactone IS EFFECTIVE at treating acne. So do you want to withdraw that blunder?

Also, topical spironolactone is effective in hamsters which had no systemic effect which means the hamsters can convert spironolactone to potassium canrenoate locally probably just like humans can as evidenced in the human study on sebaceous glands/acne.


Daily treatment with spironolactone (0.3 mg and 3 mg) on one side only significantly reduced the size of the treated flank organs, while the contralateral flank organs remained unchanged.

Of the many listed side effects from common to rare in both medications there is not a single mention of hair growing properties.

Hydralazine has been reported in scientific literature to do that and I will find the N=1 one verapamil study.
I've yet to see a single piece of compelling literature to support your assertions.

Other than the malocclusion study which is DIRECTLY pointing out you are wrong. THE EXPERIMENT HAS BEEN DONE and those with pinched STA's exactly 100 out of 100 had hair loss. And the disease the young girl at 16 had which occludes her STA which caused bitemporal balding AND thanks for pointing out about giant cell arteritis which almost everyone of them had SIGNIFICANT balding even seen in juveniles.<gasp..hand over mouth in amazement> ;)
 
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BetaBoy

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An 80 year old man who had been bald for 6 years recovered at least 2 Norwood levels that I remember. The pictures were by Bryan many years ago.
Yes he recovered an nw2 peach fuzz but why do you think its not because of the anti androgenic properties of spironolactone?
OOOPS...blunder. Topical spironolactone IS EFFECTIVE at treating acne. So do you want to withdraw that blunder?
No, it doesn't change what I said about first pass metabolites.
topical spironolactone is effective in hamsters
Hurrah for hamsters?
Hydralazine has been reported in scientific literature to do that and I will find the N=1 one verapamil study.
great so it's an ultra rare side effect that occurred in 1 person that is hardly supportive of the blud flow theory
Other than the malocclusion study which is DIRECTLY pointing out you are wrong. THE EXPERIMENT HAS BEEN DONE and those with pinched STA's exactly 100 out of 100 had hair loss. And the disease the young girl at 16 had which occludes her STA which caused bitemporal balding AND thanks for pointing out about giant cell arteritis which almost everyone of them had SIGNIFICANT balding even seen in juveniles.<gasp..hand over mouth in amazement> ;)
One physicians observations doesn't suddenly over turn a century of research that suggests blood flow has nothing to do with Androgenetic Alopecia's pathology.
 

OtyMac

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You've accomplished nothing to overturn any studies that have been posted. OH BTW, your responses are not any serious rebuttal and this concludes your education on this matter.
 

BetaBoy

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You've accomplished nothing to overturn any studies that have been posted. OH BTW, your responses are not any serious rebuttal and this concludes your education on this matter.
And with that I hope for your follicles sake that you don't employ any pseudoscience blüd-flow theory inspired therapy.
 

OtyMac

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And with that I hope for your follicles sake that you don't employ any pseudoscience blüd-flow theory inspired therapy.
And with that I hope for your follicles sake that you don't employ any pseudoscience blüd-flow theory inspired therapy.

Yah...oookay. This is the 4th piece of evidence to show there are "blud"(haha) flow problems in Androgenetic Alopecia. :)
 

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BetaBoy

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Yah...oookay. This is the 4th piece of evidence to show there are "blud"(haha) flow problems in Androgenetic Alopecia. :)
Citing pre-hamilton literature, really scrapping the bottom of the barrel aren't ya. blüd flow theory confirmed
 

OtyMac

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Citing pre-hamilton literature, really scrapping the bottom of the barrel aren't ya. blüd flow theory confirmed

Those anatomical features don't get outdated in case you didn't know and they are still there.

There is no ambiguity in what he noticed in that the veins were pinched off by some calcification process in the foramen of the scalp. There is nothing ambiguous about that and he clearly noticed the difference in those who had hair loss vs those who didn't.
 
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BetaBoy

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Those anatomical features don't get outdated in case you didn't know and they are still there.

There is no ambiguity in what he noticed in that the veins were pinched off by some calcification process in the foramen of the scalp. There is nothing ambiguous about that and he clearly noticed the difference in those who had hair loss vs those who didn't.
Ok it's settled, blüd flow causes ΑGΑ or even blüd flow causes Cardiogenetic Alopecia. So how do you propose you treat your CGA? Beta blockers? ACE inhibitors? ARBs? CCBs? KCOs? Loop-Diuretics? or you just gonna go all natural and do cardio-vascular training?
 

OtyMac

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Ok it's settled, blüd flow causes ΑGΑ or even blüd flow causes Cardiogenetic Alopecia. So how do you propose you treat your CGA? Beta blockers? ACE inhibitors? ARBs? CCBs? KCOs? Loop-Diuretics? or you just gonna go all natural and do cardio-vascular training?

Yes it HAS been established that it is a vascular disorder and you can PLAIN AS DAY SEE what happens in the below example/patent.

Treatment of alopecia​



Abstract​


The invention provides a method for treating baldness by performing one or more surgical procedures that enhances vascular blood flow to the scalp. The surgical procedure may include a bypass operation to increase blood flow through a particular artery, preventing or reducing blood flow through an arterio-arterial or arterio-venous shunt respectively thereby redirecting blood flow, reducing a bony obstruction to blood flow, removing an obstruction in one or more arteries supply blood to the scalp, sympathectomy and use of a device to prevent vascular collapse, for example preventing collapse of an artery providing blood flow to the scalp.


The above descriptions of procedures are by no means comprehensive of the options available to a surgeon for enhancing the blood supply to the scalp. Any two or more of the above procedures may be used in combination where indicated. The inventor has surprisingly found that the improvement of blood supply to the scalp will result in improved hair growth or the return of hair growth. The invention may also prevent loss of hair growth thus preventing baldness or limiting an extent of baldness. In one case, a patient who had been bald for some fifteen years displayed hair growth subsequent to surgery which improved the perfusion of his scalp. A surgeon may additionally or alternatively rely on endolumenal techniques for enhancing blood supply to the scalp. These techniques may include dilation techniques such as balloon angioplasty.
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Not all BP meds will grow hair and many cause hairloss in themselves independent of whatever it does to major arteries.

About the only things that really work to treat CGA that I know of that also grow hair are nitric oxide donors or hydralazine which captures superoxide radicals protecting it. It has already been established that NO reverses vascular stiffness thru elastase upregulation.

CCB's long acting ones like sustained release verapamil can reverse plaque buildup in the arteries. It is really the arteries fault and the capillaries just receive the blunt force of it. It works that way in end stage kidney disease too and Parkinson's where vasodilators(as a class) won't reverse calcium buildup in the brain.

Oral verapamil DOES reverse atherosclerosis and so does ORAL spironolactone. Remember, the paradox where nothing much works topically but all the jaw dropping results come from oral administration. The IRONY is of almost 40 years of topical minoxidil we are going back to ORAL minoxidil. This is not just because of SULT 1A1 lacking either because those people were even growing a couple hairs from topical minoxidil but those same people say is they achieve way better results from oral.


Verapamil just happens to be a hypertrichosis causing agent so the distinction is blurred but there is a whole list of hypertrichotic agents when taken orally will do nothing to Androgenetic Alopecia. spironolactone is not a hypertrichotic agent so we must assign a different cause of hair growth to it.


More about verapamil:

 
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OtyMac

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Since caffeine is a peripheral vasoconstrictor it is interesting/expected to find increased caffeine consumption is associated with increased vertex hair loss.

Also noting: that some alcohol less than 4 drinks per week is beneficial to vascular stiffness and is also a peripheral vasodilator.


" increased exercise duration (p = 0.050), and increased stress duration (p = 0.010). Lower body mass index, more children, increased caffeine consumption, history of skin disease, and abstinence from alcohol were significantly associated with increased hair thinning scores"


The key point to notice in the identical twins study is that "small" things DO matter. Would a vascular disruption be considered a small matter?
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Here is the full study of the identical twins and notice the hair difference.

Sci-Hub | The Contribution of Endogenous and Exogenous Factors to Male Alopecia. Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, 131(5), 794e–801e | 10.1097/PRS.0b013e3182865ca9


We believe that the same environmental factors that could potentially increase androgenic
alopecia may also negatively affect the __long-term__ outcome of hair transplantation because the
molecular mechanisms of these factors can damage both native hair follicles and transplanted fol
licles alike. Exogenous factors affecting hair loss may pose an increased risk to transplanted follicles, as they are very susceptible to metabolic and vascular insults.
 
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BetaBoy

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right so are you going to put your money where your mouth is and start taking verapamil and spironolactone?
 

OtyMac

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right so are you going to put your money where your mouth is and start taking verapamil and spironolactone?

Who knows what I will do? I'm 60 years old and even if I got a full head of scalp hair back it would only be for the opposite sex.
I'm hardly in the mood at 60 years old to be hitting on women... been there done that.
 
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michaelle

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Hi there. Thank you for the thread here, it is a really interesting topic for me. I have been looking fo such discussions... What do you think about some meds for hair like those from eDrugStore.com for example. Maybe you can recommend something to me from there? Thanks in advance!
 
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OtyMac

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Here is something I just thought of too (after watching a game in progress): how many balding NBA players are there?


Doesn't look like too many...I'm looking at their pictures from just the small picture and not clicking on every one of them. There has to be something to physical activity at least delaying Androgenetic Alopecia development.
HOWEVER: too much exercise can have an opposite effect too as shown in the identical twin study as overexertion increased odds of hair loss.

 
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