A high estrogen diet

[barcafan]

There are estrogens in foods which should be considered in formulating the ultimate diet,We know that estrogens are inflammatory and immunosuppressive and sensitive neurons to the action of glutamate .
Estrogen dominance can be caused by eating a diet high in xenoestrogens.

Like eating plastic and pcbs?

 

[vauxall]

lowering estrogen by using an aromatase inhibitor _does_ increase both testosterone and DHT, and that's a fact for which I can provide you a direct reference!

5-DHT is nonaromatizable. Therefore it is out of the equation. Once testosterone has been converted into 5-DHT, that's it. You can only prevent the conversion from testo to dht but the opposite is nil.

Then if you want you can alter the free testosterone/estrogen ratio, but what's the point?

 

[Bryan]

lowering estrogen by using an aromatase inhibitor _does_ increase both testosterone and DHT, and that's a fact for which I can provide you a direct reference!

5-DHT is nonaromatizable.

Yeah, I know. That's what I said myself, in an earlier post.

Therefore it is out of the equation. Once testosterone has been converted into 5-DHT, that's it. You can only prevent the conversion from testo to dht but the opposite is nil.

I have no idea what you mean. I'm telling you again that if you suppress estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor, you'll increase testosterone and DHT. I don't know why you said that about the conversion of T into DHT. What does THAT have to do with anything? :dunno:

Then if you want you can alter the free testosterone/estrogen ratio, but what's the point?

The point is what I've been saying: lowering estrogen (like with an aromatase inhibitor) will increase T and DHT. Raising it (like if you supply it from an external source) will lower them.

 

[vauxall]

[quote="vauxallThe point is what I've been saying: lowering estrogen (like with an aromatase inhibitor) will increase T and DHT. Raising it (like if you supply it from an external source) will lower them.

I am not convinced. Why is it that older men, who suffer from prostate enlargement, have both abnormally raised level of DHT and estrogen and abnormally low levels of free testosterone? There _IS_ a relationship between excess estrogen (and in particular estradiol) and excess DHT, at least in middle aged/mature men.

 

[barcafan]

[quote="vauxallThe point is what I've been saying: lowering estrogen (like with an aromatase inhibitor) will increase T and DHT. Raising it (like if you supply it from an external source) will lower them.

I am not convinced. Why is it that older men, who suffer from prostate enlargement, have both abnormally raised level of DHT and estrogen and abnormally low levels of free testosterone? There _IS_ a relationship between excess estrogen (and in particular estradiol) and excess DHT, at least in middle aged/mature men.

Where did you read that older men have raised DHT?

 

[Bryan]

I am not convinced.

Why aren't you convinced? As I said before, it's common medical knowledge. Even barcafan said the same thing, earlier in this thread.

Have you done what I suggested, and done some Googling on it yourself? I don't even WANT you to take my word for it, I want you to see what the medical establishment says about it. I suggest you go to a used book store and buy a used copy of "Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacalogical Basis of Therapeutics" (a copy of that book is probably on the bookshelf of every doctor in the country), and read the long and detailed chapter on androgens. It'll tell you all about how the HPT-axis works, and how estrogen is one of the things the brain looks at, for keeping testosterone production regulated.

Why is it that older men, who suffer from prostate enlargement, have both abnormally raised level of DHT and estrogen and abnormally low levels of free testosterone?

I don't know that older men have abnormally raised levels of DHT. Studies I've read (I have at least one of them knocking around here somewhere) seem to show that DHT levels stay about the same, as men get older. Estrogen levels definitely rise as men get older, which is apparently a sign of increased aromatase activity.

Haven't you read the excerpt from that study I've posted several times for misterE? It was a large trial that tested the effect of two different doses of the aromatase inhibitor atamestane on men with BPH. And as I've told you several times now, the more of the drug they took, the more their estrogen levels declined, and THE MORE THEIR TESTOSTERONE AND DHT WENT UP.

I don't care if you don't believe what _I_ tell you, but I would hope that you at least believe what doctors and medical researchers tell you.

There _IS_ a relationship between excess estrogen (and in particular estradiol) and excess DHT, at least in middle aged/mature men.

Oh, there's a relationship, all right; it's just not the one you THINK there is!

 

[Bryan]

Ok, here's a post of mine from a couple of years ago, in reply to yet another person who tried to claim that DHTgoes DOWN when you reduce estrogen (I'm snipping-out some of the more heated parts, leaving only the material about the study):

This is the study "Estrogen Reduction by Aromatase Inhibition for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia: Results of a Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Clinical Trial Using Two Doses of the Aromatase-Inhibitor Atamestane", Radlmaier et al, The Prostate 29:199-208 (1996).

The use of the aromatase inhibitor atamestane caused a reflexive INCREASE in serum androgens, including DHT! Here are the approximate numbers involved (I'm reading this off a graph they provide): after 48 weeks of therapy, the smaller dose of the drug raised serum DHT by about 23%, and the larger dose raised serum DHT by about 35%.

 

[believe]

Go to a really nice endocrinologist and check about it.
All we can do is to eat well, do exercises, be out of stress and that's it for now!

 

[Todd]

[quote="vauxallThe point is what I've been saying: lowering estrogen (like with an aromatase inhibitor) will increase T and DHT. Raising it (like if you supply it from an external source) will lower them.

I am not convinced. Why is it that older men, who suffer from prostate enlargement, have both abnormally raised level of DHT and estrogen and abnormally low levels of free testosterone? There _IS_ a relationship between excess estrogen (and in particular estradiol) and excess DHT, at least in middle aged/mature men.

Older men with BPH have an unusually high alpha reductase activity. It doesn't matter how much T the hypothalamus wants the body to produce, the prostate turns it into DHT anyways.

This is why they take proscar.

We're not talking "a little too much DHT, a chance of hairloss", these guys have pathologically high levels of DHT.

 

[vauxall]

Where did you read that older men have raised DHT?

Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine
by Michael Murray , Joseph Pizzorno

Unfortunately this is a book, I can't copy and paste, just type the relevant bits.

page 481 Prostate enlargement

"Levels of the main male sex hormone Testosterone (T) decrease with advancing age after the fifth decade, but estrogen, prolactin, LH, and FSH levels are all increased. The ultimate effect of these changes is that there is an increased concentration of dihydroTestosterone within the prostate gland"

"Elevated oestrogen plays a role in the development of BHP by inhibiting enzymes that metabolize testosterone and dihydroTestosterone".

Then Pizzorno cites a study whose abstract is unfortunately not available:

J Am Geriatr Soc. 1984 May;32(5):380-5.
Benign prostatic hyperplasia: a disorder of androgen metabolism in the male.
Horton R.
PMID: 6201524

 

[OverMachoGrande]

to maintain a head full of healthy hair, you need lots of PROTEIN!

A high protein diet stimulates IGF-1, which decreases S.H.B.G. (sex hormone binding globulin) leaving an excess of both D.H.T. and estradiol which is then going to bind to whatever S.H.B.G. is left...not a good idea.

Fat increases "free" testosterone (testosterone not bound to S.H.B.G.) that means it is going to become converted to either D.H.T. or estradiol.

I suggest a low-fat/high-fiber starch based vegan diet rich in fruits and vegetables. This diet will increases the level of testosterone bound to S.H.B.G. and will decrease the levels of D.H.T. and estradiol bound to S.H.B.G.

Now phytoestrogens are a big exception. Phytoestrogens block estrogen and D.H.T. from binding with S.H.B.G. decreasing their overall levels and increasing their clearance from the body.

Also look at countries that do not have a high rate of baldness, like China, their main staple is rice. Look at Peru; their main staple is potatoes. Look at Mexico; their main staple is pinto beans. Yet when the peoples of these countries move to the U.S.A. where the main staple is cheeseburgers, they begin to go bald. Do you think their genetics changed? Of course not, they gave up their starch based diet for a diet high in fat and protein and void of fiber.

 

[docj077]

Might I suggest an article entitled:

"Free Testosterone and Free Dihydrotestosterone through the Life Span of Men"

The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. Volume 116, Issues 1-2. Aug. 2009. Pages 118-120.

I believe that the article will demonstrate that the Free DHT/T ratio does not change in men from puberty until death after an initally high ratio in infancy.
13,152 male patients can't lie. You might have to visit your local health science library to get your hands on the article, however.

By the way, I do believe that Bryan is very correct about the hypothalamic-pituitary-target organ axis. Both in terms of production and feedback. That's common physiology and medical knowledge that can be found in virtually any given physiology textbook and is in fact a part of the Endocrinology section within Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine.

 

[OverMachoGrande]

Might I suggest an article entitled:

"Free Testosterone and Free Dihydrotestosterone through the Life Span of Men"

The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. Volume 116, Issues 1-2. Aug. 2009. Pages 118-120.

I believe that the article will demonstrate that the Free DHT/T ratio does not change in men from puberty until death after an initally high ratio in infancy.
13,152 male patients can't lie. You might have to visit your local health science library to get your hands on the article, however.

By the way, I do believe that Bryan is very correct about the hypothalamic-pituitary-target organ axis. Both in terms of production and feedback. That's common physiology and medical knowledge that can be found in virtually any given physiology textbook and is in fact a part of the Endocrinology section within Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine.

docjo77 what is your regimen?

 

[docj077]

Might I suggest an article entitled:

"Free Testosterone and Free Dihydrotestosterone through the Life Span of Men"

The Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. Volume 116, Issues 1-2. Aug. 2009. Pages 118-120.

I believe that the article will demonstrate that the Free DHT/T ratio does not change in men from puberty until death after an initally high ratio in infancy.
13,152 male patients can't lie. You might have to visit your local health science library to get your hands on the article, however.

By the way, I do believe that Bryan is very correct about the hypothalamic-pituitary-target organ axis. Both in terms of production and feedback. That's common physiology and medical knowledge that can be found in virtually any given physiology textbook and is in fact a part of the Endocrinology section within Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine.

docjo77 what is your regimen?

When you're $150,000 in debt and working 80-100 hours per week, there really isn't such a thing as a hair loss regimen.