A Closer Look At: B.P.H. & Prostate Cancer.

Bryan

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The following is a re-post of some material I've previously posted, and it's for the anti-estrogen faddists like "misterE" and "purecontrol":

Some people on these forums have the rather odd belief that estrogen is involved in hairloss in a negative way; that is, it actually causes or contributes to balding. They seriously entertain the idea of using powerful systemic aromatase inhibitors like Arimidex! Despite the evidence that I've presented in the past that contradicts that notion and shows that estrogen is actually beneficial for hair follicles, those people continue to believe what they WANT to believe, the evidence be damned. Well, I've just recently found still more evidence which supports a beneficial role for estrogen: it's the chapter "Estrogen Treatment of Hair Diseases", written by U. Schumacker-Stock, in the book "Hair Research" (ed.: Orfanos, Montagna, Stuttgen; Springer-Verlag 1981). I don't want to type out the entire chapter, but let me judiciously pick-and-choose a few excerpts, especially the small test they did with topical estrogen for male pattern baldness:

[...] "In the light of this favourable effect of estrogen on senile skin, the obvious supposition is that these steroids also have a similarly favourable effect on hair follicles. Estrogens prolong the growth period of hair (Taubert 1976, Winkler 1969) and, in addition, inhibit mitosis (Stuuttgen and Schaefer 1977). Some investigations point, that systemic estrogens increase the proliferation rate, slow down differentiation and, thus, postpone fallout of telogen hairs (Moretti et al. 1977).

"Orentreich (1969) observed a decrease in daily hair fall-out during therapy with systemic doses of estrogen...Lubowe saw good results in androgenetic alopecia by means of the conjugated estrogen Presomen (Lubowe 1972). It can be assumed that the semi-synthetic estrogens, like mestranol and ethinylestradiol, have a stronger effect on hair growth than conjugated estrogens.

"In the treatment of hair diseases, there have been few reports on systemic estrogen. But some authors have been using estrogens for topical treatment of hair diseases for many years (e.g. Funk as long ago as 1951).

"Androgenetic Alopecia, which in many cases causes great suffering, is of particular significance for topical use of estrogens... Topical estrogen treatment can be considered particularly in those cases in which systemic antiandrogen therapy...is not possible.

"According to Zondek, topical use of estrogen solutions is almost as effective as systemic administration of this hormone. Wendker et al. (1976) have demonstrated the good penetration of estradiol solutions right into the cutis. However, no reports of concentration in the subcutis and, thus, at the hair follicle are available.

"Estrogen solutions exist in West Germany as commercial products, but they can also be made up as a prescription. The commercial products are: Alpicort F, Crinohermal-fem and Ell-Cranell. [...]

"We carried out investigations into the effect of estradiol benzoate, incorporated in isopropyl alcohol, on androgenetic alopecia... We selected 35...patients with androgenetic alopecia in whom typical androgenetic alopecia was also present on the basis of history and clinical findings. We treated these patients for at least 6 months with the above-mentioned estrogen solution, in some cases for a year, and in some cases for even longer. Every day a few drops of the prescribed solution were applied to the scalp...

"Trichogram investigations according to the standardized method of Meiers (1975) were carried out on the 5th day after the last hair wash and after withdrawal of all topical therapeutic agents; this was done prior to therapy and 6 to 8 months later during therapy. During the treatment, the patients were only allowed to use a mild shampoo to wash their hair.

"The therapeutic results were evaluated on the basis of the trichogram findings, corresponding to the change in the telogen rate (TR). A decrease in the telogen rate of more than 20% was rated as improvement, values of +/-20% as no improvement, and an increase in the telogen rate of more than 20% as deterioration. The results are summarized in the Table 1.

Table 1. A decrease in the telogen rate of more than 10% was seen in a total of 22 patients = 63%

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Evaluation.......Telogen rate (TR).......No. of patients (35 = 100%)

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improvement.......>20% decrease..........18 = 51.5%

no improvement..+/-20%.....................12 = 34.2%

deterioration.....>20% increase.............5 = 14.3%

------------------------------------------------------------------

"Here you can see two particularly good examples of therapeutic success in a woman and a man: a 51-year-old woman patient, telogen rate in the frontal area prior to treatment 42.9%, after treatment 18.0%; a 33-year- old man, telogen rate in the frontal area prior to treament 46.6%, after treatment 20.0%.

"The deterioration of androgenetic alopecia in five patients had to be attributed partly to very irregular use of, and partly to premature withdrawal of, the estrogen tincture. For example, one patient who initially noticed a subjective improvement after 3 months' regular use of the estrogen spirit discontinued treatment on the advise of his general practitioner, who did not consider the therapy meaningful...

"Our results have confirmed the studies by Wustner and Orfanos (1974), who saw an improvement, that is, a decrease of the telogen-rate in 52% of androgenetic alopecia treated with Alpicort-F and Crinohermal-fem. These authors did not find side effects when their preparations were used.

"Our patients too did not report any side effects. [...] Hence, we can say topical use of estrogen is a suitable therapy for androgenetic alopecia. We cannot say whether the hair follicles become accustomed to estrogen application after 10 or more years because the observation period was not longer than 2 years."
 

dpdr

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I am very confused by these posts the misterE and Bryan :crazy:
 

Andrea

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Just a note:
the antiaromatase drugs "may" have an effect on hairloss for this reason:
the androgens WITHOUT estrogens loose their effectiveness...
The bodybuilders teach us that an "aromatizable" drug is MORE and MORE powerfull than a non aromatizable. Testosterone is more anabolic than a DHT derivate. So if, with an aromatase blocker, we block the estrogens the testosterone will loose the harmafull effect on the follicle but it is necessary take also a DHT blocker. This is another way of action but don't mean that estrogens are bad for hair!

Bryan, do you know something about the type of estrogen is better for hair?

I have done a little research and the "ideal" estrogen for hair seems to be the ESTRONE.

I'm very confused about the difference beetwen 17 Alpha and 17 Beta Estradiol.

The 17 Alpha actives the BETA receptors while the 17 beta the ALPHA.

I also found a study on mice that claims the inibitory effect of 17 beta estradiol on hairgrowth.

Bye
 

Bryan

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Andrea said:
Just a note:
the antiaromatase drugs "may" have an effect on hairloss for this reason: the androgens WITHOUT estrogens loose their effectiveness... The bodybuilders teach us that an "aromatizable" drug is MORE and MORE powerfull than a non aromatizable.

Why is that?

Andrea said:
Testosterone is more anabolic than a DHT derivate. So if, with an aromatase blocker, we block the estrogens the testosterone will loose the harmafull effect on the follicle but it is necessary take also a DHT blocker.

Why on earth do you think an aromatase inhibitor would block the harmful effects of testosterone on hair? :dunno:

Andrea said:
Bryan, do you know something about the type of estrogen is better for hair?

I would imagine the stronger the estrogen is, the better. Unless, of course, the ability to inhibit 5a-reductase is the principle way that estrogens work in scalp hair follicles. In that latter case, I'm not sure which form of estrogen is more effective.

Andrea said:
I also found a study on mice that claims the inibitory effect of 17 beta estradiol on hairgrowth.

Yes, and that makes perfect sense, because mouse hair is body hair.
 

Andrea

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Bryan,
the "theory" about an aromatase blocker is a my opinion based in my experience. I have found some people that experienced noticeable regrowth with finasteride, testosterone and an aromatase inibitor. I don't know why but... I assure you that an aromatizable drug is MORE POWERFULL than a non aromatizable but I don't have any data to support this, only my long experience in the bodybiolding.
It's strange but my friend experienced thikening of existing hair with finasteride and then, with an aromatase inibitor, an amazing regrowth in the frontal area. I also read about a guy that with Androcur and Etinilestradiol experienced a totally regrowth of hair.
 

purecontrol

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Andrea said:
Just a note:
the antiaromatase drugs "may" have an effect on hairloss for this reason:
the androgens WITHOUT estrogens loose their effectiveness...
The bodybuilders teach us that an "aromatizable" drug is MORE and MORE powerfull than a non aromatizable. Testosterone is more anabolic than a DHT derivate. So if, with an aromatase blocker, we block the estrogens the testosterone will loose the harmafull effect on the follicle but it is necessary take also a DHT blocker. This is another way of action but don't mean that estrogens are bad for hair!

Bryan, do you know something about the type of estrogen is better for hair?

I have done a little research and the "ideal" estrogen for hair seems to be the ESTRONE.

I'm very confused about the difference beetwen 17 Alpha and 17 Beta Estradiol.

The 17 Alpha actives the BETA receptors while the 17 beta the ALPHA.

I also found a study on mice that claims the inibitory effect of 17 beta estradiol on hairgrowth.

Bye


This is strange because everything I found said that the Beta form was better overal health including hair rather than the alpha form.

And like I have said from the begining not all estrogens are created equal, some are indeed good.

The problems arise #1 when you have too much bad estrogen and #2 too much estrogen in total.


The fact is that we are men and we have testosterone and we "at least I hope" want to stay men.


Listen if estrogen is the end all be all then why would women display male pattern baldness and other secondary male characteristics when the have too much estrogen?

The fact is that the male body is not going to like it when there is too much estrogen and as we have seen if you body is stopped from making those androgens then it will indeed increase the sensativity.

And for dorkus the key here is not anti-estrogen or pro-estrogen, it is about having "good" forms of estrogen as majority and to make sure that the total estrogen is not too high, same goes for the androgens ie DHT and Test.

Fact is we aren't women and as you can see Estrogen and Androgens are having a strange relationship, we are not talking one or the other we are talking about BOTH and how the interact with one another.

The studies prove that there are unfavorable interactions when it comes to hair. Something is going wrong when you have super high estrogen and low androgen.


An 60 year old male has more estrogen in his body than his female counter part, so why is he bald ( this goes for infants as well ie estrogen and bald)????

Finally the biggest topic is reducing the sensativity of the ARs (in particular areas like they used to be), by reducing insulin, overal inflamation, reduced oxidation, optimising cortisol, increasing insulin sensativity, etc.
 

purecontrol

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Andrea said:


Wow thank you very much, I knew there was something more to all of it.

From a bird’s-eye perspective on cutaneous estrogen biology, the most prominent function of estrogens in hair growth control, thus, may well be that of a molecular "brake" that entrains the hair cycle clock and contributes to hair wave phenomena. This pattern of timed self-renewal of organ compartments by cyclically halting proliferation and tissue self-renewal until estrogen activity and/or ER-mediated signaling have dropped below a threshold value is likely of great relevance to understand the regulation of many other complex tissue interaction systems and organs by estrogens. Clearly, the hair follicle offers a sterling model for the exploration of this important avenue of estrogen research.

To set the record straight I am not pro or anti estrogen. I am however pro-optimization of estrogen levels which this study greatly supports and is the future.
 

OverMachoGrande

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I believe the amount and types of estrogen (16-hydroxy=bad. 2-hyroxy=good) influence the effects and/or potency of androgens. For example: 16-hydroxyestrogen increases the effects of D.H.T. and suppresses the effects of testosterone, while the opposite applies to 2-hydroxyestrogen. A high fat diet is said to increase 16-hydroxyestrogen.

We now know that once estradiol binds with Sex Hormone Binding Globulin it activates the same androgenic pathways as D.H.T. despite being an estrogen. This explains why old men with low androgens get enlarged prostates and bald, and why teenagers don't, despite high androgen levels.

According to hero Ori Hofmekler; the secret is to switch the ratio from 16-hydroxyestrogen towards 2-hydroxyestrogen. The 2-hydroxyestogen will then be metholated in 2-methoxyestrone. 2-methoxyestrone was shown to displace estradiol from S.H.B.G... Wala! Problem solved.

So how do ya switch the ratio? Simple: get fat (except for omega-3) out of your diet, increase fiber in the diet, and here's the big one...increase your intake of vegetables and flaxseeds and completely get rid of dairy. In fact I strongly encourage all of you reading this, to research the relationship between dairy and acne and draw parallels between acne and male pattern baldness.

See the problem is mostly diet related. I'm sure all of us on here grew up eating the S.A.D. diet or the Standard American Diet... A diet high in fat, low in fiber, void of vegetables and centered on meat and dairy, not to mention soda's, candy, and hydrogenated oils. If you look around the globe and find populations with full heads of hair...and you look at their diets, what do you find them eating; starches (China=rice, Mexico=beans, Peru=potatoes), vegetables, fruits, and very little meat and no dairy. That simple. The people of these less developed countries, who eat a low fat, high fiber diet centered on starches and rich in fruits and vegetables have
no baldness and no acne.
 

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OverMachoGrande

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Hero Ori Hofmekler is the author of "The Anti-Estrogenic Diet" and "The Warrior Diet". His view on B.P.H. and hair loss are intriguing he thinks that D.H.T. isn't always the bad guy, because D.H.T. cannot penetrate the prostate from the blood. Only "free" testosterone can. Once the "free" testosterone penetrates the prostate only then does it stimulate growth. Proscar and Propecia might work for some but can cause impotence...so what do ya do? He says that by increasing serum D.H.T. "free" testosterone will decline, and thus there is less "free" testosterone to interact with the hair and prostate.
 

OverMachoGrande

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That's it. I've figured it out. Inhibiting D.H.T. and estradiol from binding with S.H.G.B. will lower "free" testosterone; only “free†testosterone can interact with your hair, if it does, only then does it cause hair loss.

Think about it. Balding men have lower S.H.B.G. (because it’s occupied by D.H.T. and estradiol) and higher “free†testosterone.

Balding men have high levels of D.H.T. and estrogen, because it’s stuck to S.H.B.G. leaving no room for “free†testosterone to bind. This “free†testosterone then enters the hair and converts.
 

armandein

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purecontrol said:
Andrea said:


Wow thank you very much, I knew there was something more to all of it.

From a bird’s-eye perspective on cutaneous estrogen biology, the most prominent function of estrogens in hair growth control, thus, may well be that of a molecular "brake" that entrains the hair cycle clock and contributes to hair wave phenomena. This pattern of timed self-renewal of organ compartments by cyclically halting proliferation and tissue self-renewal until estrogen activity and/or ER-mediated signaling have dropped below a threshold value is likely of great relevance to understand the regulation of many other complex tissue interaction systems and organs by estrogens. Clearly, the hair follicle offers a sterling model for the exploration of this important avenue of estrogen research.

To set the record straight I am not pro or anti estrogen. I am however pro-optimization of estrogen levels which this study greatly supports and is the future.

This work is more recent than 30 old years ago studies cited by Bryan ;)
 

Bryan

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purecontrol said:
This is strange because everything I found said that the Beta form was better overal health including hair rather than the alpha form.

Cite such a study.

purecontrol said:
The problems arise #1 when you have too much bad estrogen and #2 too much estrogen in total.

Really? Then why did large, supraphysiological doses of estrogen (17b-estradiol) stimulate the growth of balding human scalp hair follicles in that study I've posted several times?

purecontrol said:
Listen if estrogen is the end all be all then why would women display male pattern baldness and other secondary male characteristics when the have too much estrogen?

FYI: Nobody's saying that estrogen is the "be all end all" except YOU. And even the higher average estrogen level in women isn't always sufficient to completely stop androgenetic alopecia, especially in those women who have disease conditions which result in higher-than-normal levels of androgens.

purecontrol said:
The fact is that the male body is not going to like it when there is too much estrogen and as we have seen if you body is stopped from making those androgens then it will indeed increase the sensativity.

BTW, are you still claiming (just like misterE) that estrogen causes your body to make more DHT in response, or have you finally learned a little more about human physiology?

Sorry, pal, but I have a good memory, and I remember back a year or two ago when I was trying to educate you on that! :)

purecontrol said:
The studies prove that there are unfavorable interactions when it comes to hair. Something is going wrong when you have super high estrogen and low androgen.

Yeah, something very odd happens under those conditions: you GROW HAIR, according to Kiesewetter et al, and other researchers! :)

purecontrol said:
An 60 year old male has more estrogen in his body than his female counter part, so why is he bald ( this goes for infants as well ie estrogen and bald)????

This has already been explained and discussed ad nauseum. I won't belabor it yet again.
 

Bryan

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purecontrol said:
Andrea said:

Wow thank you very much, I knew there was something more to all of it.

Oh, so you hadn't read this excellent and very detailed Ohnemus et al study? :) I highly recommend that you read the whole thing, even though the vast majority of it will be over your head. At the very least, read "VI. Open Questions and Unmet Clinical Challenges" near the end, in which he discusses various unanswered questions (unanswered at the time he wrote that passage) regarding estrogen and hair.

One unfortunate problem with the version of the study at that link is that it doesn't provide the WHOLE, final version that you can get in the actual medical journal that published it. The medical journal version includes the experiment that Ohnemus et al did with estrogen and balding human scalp hair follicles: they found (surprise, surprise!) that estrogen given to those hair follicles stimulated their growth, just as it did in the Kiesewetter et al study which I've posted several times.

So I still have hope that even though you and misterE have this odd, unscientific bias against estrogen, sooner or later you'll both be backed-up against the wall by the sheer weight of the scientific evidence, and be forced to admit that estrogen is good for human scalp hair.
 

Andrea

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I think that there is a misunderstanding.
I have NO DOUBT about the negative impact that a high dose of estrogens have on body health and I'm sure that the "global vision" of endocine balance written by purecontrol is perfect...But, in this discussion, we analyze the role of estrogens IN THE HAIR FOLLICLE. The hair follicle is a "little world" that metabolyze substances, hormones ecc... The serum levels of steroids have a minor role except in the extreme condition (pregnancy, steroid use ecc...). So, there is no data to support the claim that the ESTRGENS ARE BAD FOR HAIR but, from sources that I have found, ONLY POSITIVE EFFECTS! I also found this that explain a sort of a "curative effect" of estrogens after chemioteraphy:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v122/ ... 2115a.html

I'm very interested about the difference between alpha and beta estradiol:

In Germany, as Bryan wrote, there are two products with estradiol: Ell Cranell (Alpicort) and Crinohermal Fem. Ell Cranell is ALPHA and can be used by both sexes while Crinohermal (Beta) is ONLY FOR WOMEN. It seems that isomer alpha doesn't have an hormonal impact on the body except, obviusly, in the hair follicle while beta does...
In the previous study cited by Bryan the reasearchers used "alpha" with mild results...

My guess is that ALPHA is safer than BETA and can be used without problem even by men while BETA is potentially dangerous but more effective on regrowth...

Bye

Happy Christmas!!!!!!!!!!! :)
 

abcdv12

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Every one participating in this thread, You all are smart and knowledgeble.
I appreciate and thank you for all your input.
I am 100% confident , one of you guys/gals will figure out the whole deal,
Hope fully soon.

Again , Thank you,
 

OverMachoGrande

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abcdv12 said:
Every one participating in this thread, You all are smart and knowledgeble.
I appreciate and thank you for all your input.
I am 100% confident , one of you guys/gals will figure out the whole deal,
Hope fully soon.

Again , Thank you,

I've figured it out. Inhibiting D.H.T. and estradiol from binding with S.H.G.B. will lower "free" testosterone; only “free†testosterone can interact with your hair, if it does, only then does it cause hair loss.

Think about it. Balding men have lower S.H.B.G. (because it’s occupied by D.H.T. and estradiol) and higher “free†testosterone.

Balding men have high levels of D.H.T. and estrogen, because it’s stuck to S.H.B.G. leaving no room for “free†testosterone to bind. The “free†testosterone that cannot bind to S.H.B.G. then affects the hair.
 

purecontrol

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Bryan said:
purecontrol said:
Andrea said:

Wow thank you very much, I knew there was something more to all of it.

Oh, so you hadn't read this excellent and very detailed Ohnemus et al study? :) I highly recommend that you read the whole thing, even though the vast majority of it will be over your head. At the very least, read "VI. Open Questions and Unmet Clinical Challenges" near the end, in which he discusses various unanswered questions (unanswered at the time he wrote that passage) regarding estrogen and hair.

One unfortunate problem with the version of the study at that link is that it doesn't provide the WHOLE, final version that you can get in the actual medical journal that published it. The medical journal version includes the experiment that Ohnemus et al did with estrogen and balding human scalp hair follicles: they found (surprise, surprise!) that estrogen given to those hair follicles stimulated their growth, just as it did in the Kiesewetter et al study which I've posted several times.

So I still have hope that even though you and misterE have this odd, unscientific bias against estrogen, sooner or later you'll both be backed-up against the wall by the sheer weight of the scientific evidence, and be forced to admit that estrogen is good for human scalp hair.


http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/6/677



From a hair research perspective, perhaps the most intriguing aspect of estrogen biology is that these sex-steroids provide an unusually potent inhibitory mechanism for hair follicle cycling, namely by arresting the hair cycle clock in telogen


From a bird’s-eye perspective on cutaneous estrogen biology, the most prominent function of estrogens in hair growth control, thus, may well be that of a molecular "brake" that entrains the hair cycle clock and contributes to hair wave phenomena. This pattern of timed self-renewal of organ compartments by cyclically halting proliferation and tissue self-renewal until estrogen activity and/or ER-mediated signaling have dropped below a threshold value is likely of great relevance to understand the regulation of many other complex tissue interaction systems and organs by estrogens.
 

Bryan

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Purecontrol, stop cherry-picking your references in an obviously dishonest attempt to try to make everybody think that estrogen is harmful to scalp hair! :smack:

I told you in plain English to read that WHOLE study, not just the part that clearly pertains to body hair. Notice this "open question" they pose near the end: "Does E2 exert similarly paradoxical, stringently location-dependent effects on human hair growth, as they are seen with androgens (i.e., do estrogen-sensitive scalp hair follicles respond in a diametrically opposed way to E2-stimulation as, e.g., hair follicles in beard, pubic, or lower leg skin)?"

And most importantly of all, read about the experiment which those very same authors (Ohnemus et al) did, to help ANSWER that "open question" (read about it in the medical journal in which that same study was published): estrogen applied to balding scalp hair follicles STIMULATED THEIR GROWTH!!

The fact that you continue to refuse to acknowlege these basic facts shows your fundamental intellectual dishonesty. As long as I'm around, I'm not going to let you get away with it.
 

purecontrol

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Wow thank you very much, I knew there was something more to all of it.[/quote]

Oh, so you hadn't read this excellent and very detailed Ohnemus et al study? :) I highly recommend that you read the whole thing, even though the vast majority of it will be over your head. At the very least, read "VI. Open Questions and Unmet Clinical Challenges" near the end, in which he discusses various unanswered questions (unanswered at the time he wrote that passage) regarding estrogen and hair.

One unfortunate problem with the version of the study at that link is that it doesn't provide the WHOLE, final version that you can get in the actual medical journal that published it. The medical journal version includes the experiment that Ohnemus et al did with estrogen and balding human scalp hair follicles: they found (surprise, surprise!) that estrogen given to those hair follicles stimulated their growth, just as it did in the Kiesewetter et al study which I've posted several times.

So I still have hope that even though you and misterE have this odd, unscientific bias against estrogen, sooner or later you'll both be backed-up against the wall by the sheer weight of the scientific evidence, and be forced to admit that estrogen is good for human scalp hair.[/quote]


http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/6/677



From a hair research perspective, perhaps the most intriguing aspect of estrogen biology is that these sex-steroids provide an unusually potent inhibitory mechanism for hair follicle cycling, namely by arresting the hair cycle clock in telogen


Main Entry: te·lo·gen
Pronunciation: \?t?-l?-?jen\
Function: noun
: the resting phase of the hair growth cycle following anagen and preceding shedding



This is what the study says, deal with it.
 
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