Why young bald males have it WORSE than females w/ alopecia

[Gilgamesh]

"Is there anything more ugly in the world," asks Scheherazade in Arabian Nights, "than a man beardless and bald as an artichoke?""

Young bald guys =

no support groups
no sympathy
no doctor to work with
able to be ridiculed at work
at best ignored, at worst made into a fool
an expectation to 'get over it' without accomodations
inability to wear a prosthetic (wig) due to social castration
family will usually secretly shame you (or not so secretly)
will usually progress so far as to not be able to hide it (females often can)
drugs such as finasteride destroy mental function (via GABA downregulation)
drugs such as finasteride make it near impossible to have a good body (gyno, loss of muscle tone for most, etc.)
Many can not even grow a proper beard
Transplant surgeons will not operate on you because you are 'too young' (generally)
Young balding goes really fast leading to friends making comments about how good you used to look: i.e.'"i liked you with that other hairstyle so much better (oblivious to the fact you started combing it down for a reason)

I could go on and on
feel free to add to the list

note: I am not expressing current distress, so there's no need to respond to this in relation to me: no longer am I so young. this is moreso an honest reflection of the horrors of being 19 and balding that I never let out of my system

also: I realize it's horrible to be female and balding as well: just a little bit less so: if you disagree give me concrete reasons why

 

[Atlas]

people lose hair, cut it short and move on.

 

[iseras]

"drugs such as finasteride destroy mental function (via GABA downregulation)
drugs such as finasteride make it near impossible to have a good body (gyno, loss of muscle tone for most, etc.)
Many can not even grow a proper beard"



WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM?

 

[Gilgamesh]

"drugs such as finasteride destroy mental function (via GABA downregulation)
drugs such as finasteride make it near impossible to have a good body (gyno, loss of muscle tone for most, etc.)
Many can not even grow a proper beard"



WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM?

MEDLINE/PubMed/Textbooks/Archival research/School + Methodological analysis of self reports via variable significance analysis


**I doubt you have qualms with the fact that many youngsters can not grow proper beards or the anti-androgenic relation to muscle mass/gyno

As for the loss of mental function. Finasteride inhibits 5-AR (responsible for synthesizing between pregnanolone and tesosterone derivatives - needed and necessary for the formation of GABA (specifically GABA-A) receptors).

If you look into other disorders or medications that cause an inhbiition of GABA you will quickly note the same symptoms of brain fog and loss of acuity as reported by finasteride users.

KOFI on alt.baldspot used to write a lot about this, look up his posts on GABA and DHT in usenet archives

 

[Petchsky]

"drugs such as finasteride destroy mental function (via GABA downregulation)"

Care to expand on this point? be clear and concise. Thanks.

"drugs such as finasteride make it near impossible to have a good body (gyno, loss of muscle tone for most, etc.)"

News to me. In fact i remember posters reporting increased muscle growth, faster than before, while weight lifting and taking finasteride, and even faster gains when taking dutasteride.

I've taken finasteride for over 2 years now and i think i would have noticed some of these side effects you mention in your posts.

 

[VWdude]

okay... and where's the real doctor in here?

 

[Gilgamesh]

I've always found it remarkable people think they can just inhibit a key hormone without significant effect. DHT?..don't need it..just like that..that easy. Come on people, think rationally. Your body is not a car.

some basics ->

"The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone. However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain (CNS), skin, genitals - practically everything but muscle - the active androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply behaves as a prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen-dependent area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism, due to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder, however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body hair and underdeveloped prostates and penises. Also, their libido and sexual function is often disrupted.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for realizing the full performance-enhancing effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here is DHT’s effects on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

The reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output, leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way - by developing a case of gynecomastia.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three likely ways that this occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production—testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogen). DHT’s properties in this regard come into particular utility when it is administered exogenously. This will be discussed in further detail in the next section.



DHT, Estrogen and the Prostate


When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for prostate hypertrophy and even prostate cancer prevails amongst most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized, healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early and mid-adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size. This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen / androgen ratio - a condition common in older men - is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable. Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do that? Basically it does this by replacing the testosterone in the body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT, low estrogen) apparently then results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent 5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The following illustrates the results:




In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to
modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to 2.5
to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as in the
plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml (from
0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma levels,
these decreased by 50%.Among this group of subjects, the volume
of the prostate diminished significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound
and by PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates
was from 31.09.+-.16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72
grams after treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment
having a mean duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01).

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning BPH now doesn't it?

[/b]

 

[Gilgamesh]

okay... and where's the real doctor in here?

give up on them

between being in bed with the pharmaceutical industry and being so filthy rich they have no need to continue doing any more than the minimum amount of research (mostly provided expense free from big pharma), they know about things such as male pattern baldness/finasteride/GABA only peripherally and through drug package inserts or promotion. Despite mounting awareness , they continue to prescribe dangerous and often lethal drugs.

Any fool who had google and half a mind interest knew about the dangers of COX-2 inhibitors (Vioxx - killed 75,000 people) years and years ago. why didn't any of these magical doctors know when the information was so ubiquitous? My mother's doctor tried to push Bextra down her throat just last month when she has high risk factors for heart disease. WHY? ask yourself that.

the reality of modern times is you need to figure stuff out on your own (especially within a capitalistic system where everyone has an agenda or bias)

 

[Guest]

Very interesting Gilgamesh. I like reading your posts. Your exactly right that we have to find our own answers. I feel very alienated in this modern capitalistic society because money is whats running our lives, not humans. The embracement of this alienation though is to get of our lazy asses and find out things for yourself.

 

[smudge]

yeah, i agree...but for different reasons...

balding in a young man is worse than female alopecia because it is happening to ME.

 

[google1980]

After reading that post, I'm glad I never started Propecia. It just might be dumbest thing to do. Results maybe only last 5 - 8 years at best. If you're 20 something, I would say to get off Propecia now! otherwise your children are gonna come out as XXY.

 

[Thinning]

If you're 20 something, I would say to get off Propecia now! otherwise your children are gonna come out as XXY.

ROFL, thats some funny sh*t dude, even if it is true. I say f*** it, lets grow a whole army of XXY mutant propecia babies that will conquer the world with their freakish height and psychotic minds!

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

Misinformation is on both ends on the finasteride perspective. The reality is that side effects can happen, long term sides are not documented but may occur, indications from those who have been on finasteride for many years indicate that the sides are minimal but no ones knows for sure because as it has not been accurately studied, no one has any idea of birth effect from finasteride and most report decent results on finasteride (most get maintainence minimal regrowth if any). I would never ever taking a hormone altering drug when trying have a child other then that my hair is important enough to take daily finasteride in hopes of keeping what I have. That's how I see it and that is also unbiased unlike what most of the comments on this site and on this thread.

 

[Cornholio]

After reading that post, I'm glad I never started Propecia. It just might be dumbest thing to do. Results maybe only last 5 - 8 years at best. If you're 20 something, I would say to get off Propecia now! otherwise your children are gonna come out as XXY.

WHERE THE HELL DO YOU GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM? (I borrowed that quote from above... but still :? ).

There is no evidence that propecia causes mutations (specifically kleinfelter's syndrome XXY) ... If a female has continuous exposure during pregnancy her male child will have less DHT, and will not develope normal external genetalia, but that is not a mutation. So dont share your proscar with your wife. Geeze. :freak:

It may not prevent hair loss completely, forever, for everybody but it can stop it and/or continue to delay it for most, for a long time with good safety and few (reversible) side effects for most. No other drug offers that.

If you dont believe it go back to the studies, including the 5 year post-marketing follow-up... Oh, I forgot, that was published by doctors (bunch of big pharm w****s) and Big Pharm (they will sell poison for a buck) and means less than the paranoid rambling postings of one or two anonymous, biased, hypochondriacal, self-educated OCD posting men who believe everything they read on the internet and can't distinguish random events (coincidence) from side-effects.

Why all the finasteride bashing, all of a sudden? If you dont want to take the best studied most convenient proven drug available, fine, switch quietly to experimental treatments and take herbs, drink soymilk and green tea and use a laser comb. Or, find some real studies and we can talk.