Why does DHT begin to affect as you age?

[macaroni]

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[biddybomb]

As far as I know, that right there is one of if not the biggest mystery about hairloss. What triggers these switches? There comes a point for most men when these triggers are activated. I think the clue to the whole thing has to be in the hairline. Why do some men go slick bald and others experience minor frontal recession at a usually pretty precise time in life (late teens to late twenties eg mature hairline)?

This is where external factors may play a bigger role than most people know. Are these switches turned on my things like diet? stress? Who knows but its a big mystery at this point of time.

 

[Norwood One]

Well DHT isn't an evil androgen as a lot of people make it out to be. It's a universal male androgen. EVERY male needs it/needed in the past to become a male in the first place. In the womb during male development, the Y chromosome is responsible for producing the testes, which in turn produce testosterone. DHT is converted from testosterone in the developing child in order to produce external male genitalia. That's why warning labels tell pregnant women to stay away from it during gestation.

Testosterone levels drop after birth till about puberty, and stay high into adulthood. So when there's more testosterone in the system, there's also more DHT. The reason people lose their hair (for those afflicted with male pattern baldness) is their follicles. The FOLLICLES are sensitive to androgens. It's why balding begins for some in their late teens and goes on into their 20's = that's the time men will have peak testosterone levels.

So if you're born with androgen sensitive follicles, you're ****ed.

 

[hellouser]

Thanks for the input guys

Norwood One, are you suggesting that follicles in males prone to suffer from male pattern baldness are DHT sensitive from birth?

That's an interesting thought. I wonder if anyone ever did studies in infant mice where they administer doses of DHT to see if hair is affected. If that is true that the male pattern baldness problem is a much serious issue to solve. I was under the impression that something changed that caused the hair follicle to suddenly be DHT intolerant. I've always thought of male pattern baldness as an auto-immune disease such as diabetes where the immune system attacks the follicle due to high concentrations of DHT but never really had any evidence of this so it was just conjecture...

All men have basically the same concentrations of DHT.

However only bald/balding men have high concentrations of PGD2.

 

[mr_robot]

Thanks for the input guys

Norwood One, are you suggesting that follicles in males prone to suffer from male pattern baldness are DHT sensitive from birth?

That's an interesting thought. I wonder if anyone ever did studies in infant mice where they administer doses of DHT to see if hair is affected. If that is true that the male pattern baldness problem is a much serious issue to solve. I was under the impression that something changed that caused the hair follicle to suddenly be DHT intolerant. I've always thought of male pattern baldness as an auto-immune disease such as diabetes where the immune system attacks the follicle due to high concentrations of DHT but never really had any evidence of this so it was just conjecture...

It's not Serum DHT that is the problem, the problem is 5aR being produced in your follicles being elevated hence more T->DHT that attaches to the follicle. That is why Serum DHT is normal even in balding men but elevated in the scalp. Balding follicles have about half the number of T attached but twice the amount of DHT compared to to no balding follicles.

What causes the increase in 5aR? That is the million dollar question.

Yes DHT has been observed to kill follicles along with PGD2 and IL-6, although ultimately it is DKK- 1 at the end of the chain that causes cell death. The immune system does not attack the follicle it's more like suicide.

 

[Kingswat0]

Very good question OP.

 

[mr_robot]

All men have basically the same concentrations of DHT.

However only bald/balding men have high concentrations of PGD2.

Same serum DHT, but scalp DHT is elevated.

Although I have not managed to find a study, its very likely that high DHT causes high PGD2.

 

[abcdefg]

Yeah I think we all would like the answer to this very important question, but no one knows. Why do some guys not really go bald until their 30s or later when androgen levels seemingly would decline with age? You would think as you got older male pattern baldness would stop or slow down but a lot of times it seems to gradually get worse kind of opposite of what you would think

 

[Armando Jose]

wow i have to say i'm reading some fascinating papers about the roles of PGD2 & PGE2 in general functions.
I typically try to avoid making personal comparisons/observations because they are obviously biased, but it really is remarkable how the difference between PGD2 and PGE2 can explain so much between some of the key differences between me and my two triplet brothers.

Here's some of the differences i found between myself and them:
1 - I sleep way more than they do, and i sleep like a rock whereas they both suffer from sleepwalking/night terrors of an extreme nature. This means that most nights (i'd say 80%) 30-50% of the night is spent not truly sleeping but moving around. Apparently, elevated PGD2 induces heavy sleep, whereas PGE2 (the wonderful hair promoter) causes sleeplessness and restlessness. You can see that here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC280366/

2 - My brothers drink a heck of a lot more milk than i do. Milk, apparently, increases PGE2 production quite a bit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1403446

3 - My brothers' hands are perhaps the other main difference (besides my hair obviously) from me. They have long fingers with what some would call clubbed fingernails. Clubbed fingernails apparently is a result of elevated PGE2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_clubbing - theirs are not as bad as the ones shown on that page but they are distinctively curved in the same way

They are both full NW1s, and i am starting to believe these little differences that have always set us slightly apart are bigger than i thought. I gotta get myself some PGE2!

Your thoughts are interesting, ...., but the reality is that all ideas must fit in the special pattern of hairloss, only certains hairs are affected. Which is the difference between levels of PGD2/PGE2 among hairs .... It is very intricated issue, but if we know the initial trigger we'll be more near of solve it. My bet is that sebum is the key, only hairs at sides of scalp are not vulnerable to the possible attack of sebum acummulation and deterioration, ....

 

[Norwood One]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319975/

Another interesting thing to read OP in your quest for the truth, Dr. Cotsarelis's research

[h=1]Prostaglandin D2 Inhibits Hair Growth and Is Elevated in Bald Scalp of Men with Androgenetic Alopecia[/h]

 

[abcdefg]

Yeah what you say could be right. The issue is when are going to get a treatment that physically addresses that problem and corrects it? That is the million dollar issue and the hardest part by far. We knew androgens caused male pattern baldness for what 30 years or so? So far we have propecia and dutasteride I guess. Far from perfect AAs, and we still have no AR antagonist which we desperately need. Figuring out the theory is not easy, but physically correcting the issue is the really tough part.

 

[Norwood One]

We also have to keep in mind that getting older in age literally is every one of our cells getting older with us. Telomeres are at the ends of DNA strands that prevent DNA degradation when cells multiply. The more they multiply, the shorter they get. This leads to apoptosis.

I don't know if there's any research regarding men who only lose their hair far down the line and only minimally in terms of whether or not they have elevated scalp DHT, but some of the hair loss can be attributed to this very fact, not just hormones. Our skin gets saggier, our bones get more brittle, and following the same logic, a hair strand, which in itself is an organ is very delicate and gets thinner/falls out as well.