Why do people make their own topical spironolactone?

[Fat-Elvis]

I've seen so much about people making their own spironolactone, but I still don't understand why. Is it more effective than the 5% cream? Just easier to apply, or what? Why bother?

Also, is there only one brand of topical spironolactone, Dr Lee or whatever? I've heard the 2% isn't very effective and not even worth it....any truth to that?

And is the 5% cream that much of a pain to use?

 

[CCS]

my two reasons:

1. save a lot of money
2. lee's cream is so thick. not good for diffuse thinning. I prefer my clear liquid. And mine is 2%, but I think it might have potential to work better than lee's. that is just my guess though. that's because i use DMSO, octal salicylate, and PG. Not sure what he uses.

 

[TAINTED-MEAT]

College, I'm not sure how your formula works, but I would just buy the stuff that Dr. Lee sells. I know it is not cheap, but at least you know it works. Don't but the 2% solution that Dr. Lee sells. If you buy from Dr. Lee, buy the 5% formula that is in cream form, because the 2% solution is worthless and if you buy it, you might as well consider it a donation. If you are not completely broke, I'd recommend that you buy the 5% cream from Dr. Lee or wherever else you can find it. I read a couple of months ago that HairLossTalk.com was supposed to start stocking it, but haven't heard anything since.

Good luck with your regimen.

 

[Old Baldy]

Tainted: College has done ALOT of reading on making topicals, using penetrators, etc. I would imagine his concoction is every bit as good as Dr. Lee's. Most likely better.

The only thing Dr. Lee has over College is he can get pure spironolactone. powder because he is a doctor.

I've read the ingredient list in Dr. Lee's spironolactone. cream and it is elementary. Nothing special about his base ingredients.

I'm a layman who makes his own creams and soaps and could whip up a base cream like Dr. Lee's in about 10 minutes!

Even if you don't know how to make creams you can buy cream base kits from many places like LeMelange, Chemistry Store and Somerset, etc. You'll get fresh base creams that are very easy for anyone to make and can tweak them to your desire.

Each of the above companies base cream kits are very good for mixing in "medications", penetrants, etc. You should always have additional emulsifiers and thickeners on hand to get the consistency you desire. These additional emulsifiers and thickeners are cheap and will last for MANY batches. Buy some Germaban or similar preservative to add also. Preservatives are cheap and last a long time.

Also, you can buy any good cream at the drug store and it would probably have better base ingredients than Dr. Lee's. Not criticizing Dr. Lee but that's just the plain truth IMHO.

So, why should College spend $32.00 (pre-shipping costs) for a 2 ounce jar of spironolactone. cream when he can whip up a 3% fresh cream or liquid solution for a fraction of the cost?

(I say 3 percent because that is the amount of spironolactone. used in the famous study cited by Bryan and Doctor Proctor many times over the years.)

Cost effectiveness goes with the homemade stuff IMHO. That is, as long as you know what you're doing, and College KNOWS what he's doing. It's "all about" the vehicle IMHO Tainted and Dr. Lee's vehicle is very basic. We can do better IMHO. :wink:

For example, did you know that the octyl salicylate used in College's concoction has been shown, in vivo, to deliver finasteride. ten times better when mixed at 5 percent with alcohol than without?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/699813 ... hair transplant=4440777

 

[Fat-Elvis]

So how do you make your own spironolactone?

Also, how long does a bottle of 5% Dr Lee spironolactone last (if you use it all over)?

 

[Sean68]

it should last you a couple of months. you dont need to apply that much.

 

[Old Baldy]

So how do you make your own spironolactone?

Also, how long does a bottle of 5% Dr Lee spironolactone last (if you use it all over)?

Just buy some good cream at the drugstore. One that looks good to you (it's your choice) and mix 18 crushed 100mg spironolactone. tablets into 2 ounces (60ml) of the cream. This will give the 3 percent strength used in the 1988 study. That's the easiest way. Also, keep this concoction in the refrigerator.

(This is Bryan's recipe. He used Dermovan, however, any good store bought cream will suffice very well. Might even be better? You know those womens' creams have been around a long time. :wink: )

Some guys add 3-6 crushed tablets of 5mg finasteride. and or 3-6 capsules of dutasteride. to make a very strong anti-androgen/anti-5AR concoction. I'm one of those guys. For me it works with minimal side effects.

Here's an example of a well priced, good cream from Swanson's. They are on sale now. Why not buy a few? Now, this is a cream I couldn't whip up in 10 minutes!!

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/webapp/w ... Ntk=Level1

 

[TAINTED-MEAT]

OB,
you seem to be very knowledgable on this subject. Would this be as good of a vehicle as Dr. Lee's and therefore be as effective? When you make your spironolactone, does it smell bad? I like Dr. Lee's because it's effective and doesn't smell bad after I apply my minoxidil. However, if I can make effective spironolactone that doesn't smell bad, I'm sure as hell going to do that because it will save me $$. So if I wanted to make this stuff, just by the two ounce jar from Swanson's, then crush 18-24 tablets of 100mg spironolactone and mix it and that's it? If that works, that seems like one hell of a great deal! I've also heard that spironolactone should be kept in the refrigerator, why is that?

 

[Old Baldy]

That's all there is to it. The cream from Swanson's doesn't smell bad at all. Hardly any smell really. I bought one a long time ago just to see how it worked. Good stuff IMHO.

Never had any bad smell when putting on minoxidil. with the spironolactone. cream either. We all seem to be different in this regard though. Maybe it has to do with our individual metabolisms, etc.?

Look at those ingredients. Very good IMHO. Much better than those in the base cream used by Dr. Lee IMHO. Good penetrators, anti-oxidants, etc. Swanson's is a reputable company also. Shipping is always $4.95. Not bad.

I put the stuff in the refrigerator to make sure it stays fresh. An extra precaution. spironolactone. ain't the most stable chemical in the world from what I've read.

Give it a try. If you don't like it, you're not out an arm and a leg. Also think about adding some finasteride. or dutasteride. I know it is controversial though. From what I've read, finasteride. and dutasteride. are compatible with spironolactone. No adverse chemical reaction.

Good luck!

 

[Fat-Elvis]

The idea of mixing it with finasteride or dutasteride is interesting. Would applying topical dutasteride give any side-effects, even if you'd experience sides from taking it orally? Hell, how would topical finasteride/dutasteride alone compare to topical spironolactone?

 

[Old Baldy]

Some of the finasteride./dutasteride. gets into your system. That's pretty well proven by research.

You'll get some directly into the follicular unit before it gets into your system also, which is good IMHO.

Most of the naysayers (relative to topical finasteride./dutasteride.) formed their opinion before research indicated finasteride./dutasteride. gets directly into the follicular unit before getting into the bloodstream and metabolized by the liver (i.e., before they are "sent everywhere" so to speak).

This is my opinion Elvis. I might be wrong on what the naysayers really feel.

Many of the naysayers feel the only benefit comes from what gets into your system and is delivered into the follicle via the blood vessels. However, some finasteride./dutasteride. does get into the follicular unit as it passes through the skin before it gets into the bloodstream.

This is a controversial subject to say the least Elvis. I might be wrong in what I'm saying and I might be right in what I'm saying. Sorry, but that's all I'm really positive about.

Do a search on topical finasteride and/or dutasteride at all the hairsites and at alt.baldspot.com so you can make up your mind. This is a personal decision.

Combining finasteride./dutasteride. with spironolactone. arguably delivers an androgen receptor blocker (spironolactone.), a 5AR2 enzyme blocker (finasteride. and dutasteride.) and a 5AR1 enzyme blocker (dutasteride.).

This covers the gambit of attacking the androgen receptor and 5AR enzyme part of male pattern baldness.

But you have to read up on this subject and decide for yourself. For me, side effects are reduced and the results have been better than when I took finasteride. orally for 11 months. But that's ME!! Might not be YOU!! :? You know how these male pattern baldness treatments can vary from individual to individual. :-x

The good part is spironolactone., finasteride. and dutasteride. all penetrate the skin fairly well and do not react with each other in concoctions. Just refrigerate and they should last for a few months at the least IMHO.

(This "lasting" of the concoction is even a controversial subject Elvis. That's why most guys make 2 ounces at a time and use it up before making another batch.)

Good luck!

 

[Guest]

This is an interesting post. Are many people making a topical cream with spironolactone plus dutasteride?

 

[powersam]

id be very wary of using dmso with spironolactone, because you'd almost certainly get systemic side effects and spironolactone is great for feminisation.

 

[Dave001]

I've read the ingredient list in Dr. Lee's spironolactone. cream and it is elementary. Nothing special about his base ingredients.

[...]

Also, you can buy any good cream at the drug store and it would probably have better base ingredients than Dr. Lee's. Not criticizing Dr. Lee but that's just the plain truth IMHO.

So, why should College spend $32.00 (pre-shipping costs) for a 2 ounce jar of spironolactone. cream when he can whip up a 3% fresh cream or liquid solution for a fraction of the cost?

Yup, there is no reason at all to suspect that Dr. Lee's overpriced lotion/cream is any more effective than the next. In fact, the primary design consideration of his formulation is probably aesthetic appeal.

 

[Dave001]

Some of the finasteride./dutasteride. gets into your system. That's pretty well proven by research.

You'll get some directly into the follicular unit before it gets into your system also, which is good IMHO.

Most of the naysayers (relative to topical finasteride./dutasteride.) formed their opinion before research indicated finasteride./dutasteride. gets directly into the follicular unit before getting into the bloodstream and metabolized by the liver (i.e., before they are "sent everywhere" so to speak).

The concern that significant systemic absorption occurs from finasteride seems mostly the result of the FDA/Merck's precautionary warnings, which were based on the structural properties of the steroid, rather than results from human clinical trials. Results from the published human studies do not indicate significant
percutaneous absorption from topically applied finasteride at the concentrations and amounts tested, and in a few of the studies on hirsutism with female subjects, relatively high concentrations were used (as high as %0.5, IIRC), with the total amount of finasteride applied on the order of several milligrams.

Merck's warnings are in my opinion well justified, considering the severity of the consequences of fetal exposure to finasteride. And it most certainly should not be used topically or otherwise by women who are pregnant or may become pregnant while using it.

However, the likelihood of significant systemic exposure -- even after taking into account finasteride's relatively flat dose-response curve -- from topically applied finasteride in the range of concentrations typically used seems minimal, enough so that I even use it myself, and I would never consider using it orally for an indefinite length of time.

Topical finasteride, along with topical spironolactone should form the foundation of everyone's topical antiandrogenic regimen. The alternative options either have weaker evidence, an insufficient and/or unacceptable toxicological profile, or are not readily available at a reasonable cost.

 

[cmudave]

Very interesting thread... I have 3 questions if any one can help me out.

1.)has any one had significant results with homemade topical spironolactone?
2.)Do you use topical spironolactone effective enough to use alone as an anti- androgen?
3.)Could spironolactone be made into a topical with emu oil?

 

[Old Baldy]

Hey Dave. Here's the study that has always made me think finasteride./dutasteride. topical treatments can get into our systems. So, the most we can do is limit the absorption and get some directly into the follicles before the drugs get into our systems? Well, before some of the drugs get into our systems?

Local and Systemic Reduction by Topical Finasteride or Flutamide of Hamster Flank Organ Size and Enzyme Activity
Cailin Chen, Libertad A Puy, Jacques Simard, Xun Li, Shankar M Singh and Fernand Labrie

MRC Group in Molecular Endocrinology, CHUL Research Center and Laval University, Québec, Canada

Received 2 June 1993; Revised 17 June 1995; Accepted 13 July 1995.

Top of pageAbstract
The hamster flank organ is a widely used model of the control of sebaceous gland activity by androgens and anti-androgens. Finasteride, a 5-reductase inhibitor, was administered locally on the surface of the right flank organ and right ear twice daily for 4 weeks. The treatment caused similar 12% to 30% reductions in the size of the sebaceous glands in both flank organs. Moreover, relative mRNA levels of the androgen-regulated FAR-17a gene measured by in situ hybridization as well as [3H]-thymidine incorporation and 5-reductase activity were similarly decreased in the two flank organs after topical application. The pure anti-androgen flutamide, at the same doses, exerted a more potent effect on all the same parameters, and the effect was also comparable on both the treated and untreated sides of flank organs. Finasteride and flutamide significantly decreased ventral and dorsal prostatic weights after topical application. The present data show that the topical administration of finasteride, in analogy with flutamide, causes local inhibition of sebaceous gland growth in both the costovertebral organs and ears. However, as demonstrated by the similar inhibitory effect in the contralateral untreated side and the reduced weight of the dorsal and ventral lobes of the prostate and seminal vesicles, finasteride and flutamide both exert significant systemic effects.

I know this study isn't the "be all and end all" but it does make me wonder.

 

[RadioRaheem]

Very interesting thread... I have 3 questions if any one can help me out.

1.)has any one had significant results with homemade topical spironolactone?
2.)Do you use topical spironolactone effective enough to use alone as an anti- androgen?
3.)Could spironolactone be made into a topical with emu oil?

1) I dont use homemade spironolactone, but I've had success with the versions of it I have been using (formerly wholesalehairproducts and now genhair's version).
2) It can be effective enough to use alone, but I would argue that it's relative to how aggressive one's hair loss is. If one's hair loss isn't very aggressive, I think it should be sufficient.
3) spironolactone can be made into a topical with emu oil if you want. But you'd have to do that on your own -- homemade.

 

[JWM]

How on earth does one make a topical spironolactone/Finasteride cream? Is it as easy as crushing some spironolactone and finasteride pills into some Demorvan?

If I recall, several years back, Waseda posted a recipe for a topical spironolactone/finasteride cream with Emu oil and Dermovan as the vehicle.

 

[Old Baldy]

How on earth does one make a topical spironolactone/Finasteride cream? Is it as easy as crushing some spironolactone and finasteride pills into some Demorvan?

If I recall, several years back, Waseda posted a recipe for a topical spironolactone/finasteride cream with Emu oil and Dermovan as the vehicle.

Yes, it's that easy. You could put one or two ml of PPG or alcohol to help dissolve the finasteride./spironolactone. before mixing them into the store bought cream but it ain't totally necessary IMHO. (Two ounce concoction assumed.)

The fatty alcohols, oils, etc., in store bought creams will dissolve the stuff well, on their own, IMHO. Just buy some decent cream from the drug store. Women are great for advice on a decent cream. Ask one. :wink:

Good neutral creams found everywhere are Cetaphil and Neutrogena Neutral Cream. However, I suggest you ask a woman first because there are alot of creams out there.

Here's a new one that has tea tree oil in it that appears to be a very good cream for our purposes. Tea tree oil will help get rid of parasites and bacteria which might help other stuff work better IMHO. It should help with the "seb. derm." part of our ailment. (You know, the "dirty", downstream effect of our reactions to dht. As a layman, I just call it the "serb. derm. part of our insidious ailment.)

You might want to buy some of the pure tea tree oil at the site below and put a few drops on your balding spots a few times a week for a couple of hours if you have the time. It will clean out the scalp and probably allow other things to work better IMHO. You can put it on over other stuff, doesn't have to be by itself IMHO.

Don't worry about eruptions if you get the red pustules(sp?) from using tea tree oil. It's just the parasites and bacteria getting cleared out of your skin. That's a good thing IMHO. Just ride it out. It's been around 2 months for me now, so, like everything else, it takes TIME!!

Every red pustule I got now has a hair growing out of it on my 15 year balding crown. It's very exciting for me. The wife commented and she doesn't usually comment. :lol:

Needless to say, I have more red pustules than someone with a serious case of acne, but they don't hurt or anything. (I also use neem oil religiously.)

I'm embarrassed that I didn't attack the "seb. derm." part of my ailment more seriously to begin with. VERY embarrassed. I was an IDIOT!! :-x

(But I didn't have dandruff, or anything like it, so I thought seb. derm. wasn't a problem for me... uh... WRONG!! )

http://www.puritansale.com/pages/file.a ... &CPID=1916

Crush pills in a mortor and pestle or use one of those small coffee grinders.

spironolactone. finasteride. and dutasteride. are all fat soluble making them easy to mix in creams.